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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transactivism and the lesbian community

187 replies

iwantmycommunityback · 21/01/2018 18:05

I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few days in particular about transactivism and lesbians and thought I might try to put some of it into writing, partly to try to make sense of it and partly because I keep still seeing people refer to the ‘LGBT’ or ‘LGBTQ’ community and equating transactivism with lesbian and gay rights.

I think the most obvious impact of transactivism is on young lesbians being encouraged to identify as heterosexual transmen and to subject themselves to damaging medical treatment, the effects of which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I think Janice Turner’s article in the Times already covers that issue very well: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

One of the problems for young lesbians (in addition to the rise in lesbophobia particularly among the young) is that, when they reach out to ‘their’ community, eg join an LGBT group for support, what they get isn’t their community at all but something very hostile.

Gender critical feminists will be familiar with the idea of trans-identified males co-opting women’s identities, women’s rights, women’s spaces etc for their own ends but there are other forms of appropriation going on, particularly in the (former) LGBT ‘community’ (including transsexuals themselves having been co-opted by people who don’t have body dysphoria and who marginalise them as ‘truscum’) . For lesbians, in addition to the appropriation of womanhood, I think the two main additional identity appropriations that cause problems are:

Transbians

These are heterosexual biological males who identify as women and, therefore, as lesbians and have hijacked our community (support groups, social groups, bars, forums, you name it) and believe that lesbians should be open to having sex with someone with a penis if they ‘identify’ as a woman (see ‘the cotton ceiling’). This group has widened further e.g. including ‘transfeminine men’ and men who identify as a woman part-time (so get to walk through life as a heterosexual man but just ‘identify’ as a lesbian for a few hours to access a lesbian group or lesbian club night where they are of course the most oppressed person ever and must be centred at all times).

As well as being included in our groups, they are held up as examples to us eg for International Women’s Day one group had a talk from an ‘inspirational woman’ who was a biological male, who hadn’t had any surgery, was dressed as a bloke (not that that should make any difference..), had a bit of stubble going on and identified as non-binary (pronouns something like ‘zie’) not as a woman. Like, not only could they not find an actual woman who was inspirational enough to fill that spot, they couldn’t even find a man who was prepared to say they were a woman. Stuff like this is being funded by charity grants intended for women and for lesbian and gay people.

‘Queer’ straight trans allies

This is pretty much a consequence of the above. For those who don’t know, queer is now used as an all-encompassing term for anyone who doesn’t identify as a heterosexual “cis” person. However, it is also preferred by certain people over terms like lesbian, gay and bisexual because it does away with what are considered the rigid boundaries of ‘gender’ and sexuality e.g. lesbian and gay meaning being attracted to the same sex, bisexual as being attracted to ‘both’ sexes, when certain people reject these categories and the idea that there are two sexes.

Take, for example, Lily Madigan who is a biological male who has now come out as a lesbian and is dating a woman. Let’s presume for a moment that this woman (let’s call her Chloe) is a) a biological female b) and a passionate trans uber-ally. Chloe is a bio female who is dating a bio male with a penis who wears a pink hoodie and identifies as a woman. Say, before that, Chloe was dating a bio male with a penis who wears a blue hoodie and is, therefore, a man. Maybe in her next relationship, she will date a bio male with a penis who has purple hair and identifies as ‘genderqueer’. Therefore, Chloe can say that she dates men, women and genderqueer people, including both cisgender and trans people. Therefore, she is a queer or pansexual woman.

Along with the transbians, these ‘queer’ woman become involved in what was formerly the lesbian and bisexual women’s community. However, these trans uber-allies have a lot of views that are contrary to the interests particularly of lesbians. They believe that lesbians have ‘cis’ privilege and also that lesbians (along with gay men) are the most privileged people in the LGBT community. They believe that lesbians are narrow-minded and transphobic for only wanting to date other biological women and oppress transwomen who can’t break through the ‘cotton ceiling’ of their underwear.

I’m not even sure when this stuff started because, like most of us, due to the blurring of the meaning of words, I just didn’t see it happening. A lot of the main online websites, blogs and forums for lesbians started to change, with different women running them and, over time, a shift in the tone – lots about trans inclusion and more references to being ‘queer’ and open to relationships with anyone, about how some people (the lesbians) had privilege in our community and should prioritise these other people, less representation of butch women (despite the talk of blurring of gender boundaries/genderfluidity) etc.

It was only years later, someone who knew the women who had been running one of these websites was talking about who they were and who they were in relationships (bio females in relationships with bio males, basically) that the penny finally dropped with me that these were straight women appropriating our identity and lecturing at us and marginalising us in our own community.

This blurring of the language enables them to do it – but even in cases where you can see it for yourself (e.g. if you are looking at what is clearly a straight couple, who you know will be read by everyone they meet as a straight couple, even if the guy is wearing a bit of eyeliner), you couldn’t say anything as you couldn’t suggest that he wasn’t a woman (or genderqueer or whatever).

Why aren’t the LGB community (in particular lesbians) speaking out more?

  1. Firstly, I think it takes a while to see what it going on (for a number of reasons including the blurring of language, the shutting down of any discussion or even thought on the issue e.g. through the repetition of mantras such as transwomen are women, positive experience of/friendships with traditional transsexuals and not understanding how much the trans movement has changed, misrepresentation of this issue in what we consider to be ‘our’ trusted (LGB) news outlets, organisations, websites etc, the conflating of trans issues with gay issues that aren’t really comparable if you actually give them any thought but on the surface seem similar to negative things that have happened to you and feel personal to you resulting in a tendency to just automatically react against and feel angry about any opposition, especially if you are being told that it is ‘anti-LGBT’ and coming from ‘anti-LGBT’ organisations).

  2. Some lesbians aren’t really that involved any more so aren’t aware of what is going on. Many lesbians will have accessed the LGB community, lesbian support groups, lesbian/gay bars when they first came out, when they were looking for a relationship, in times of difficulties etc but are now happily settled in a relationship and don’t feel the need to access those resources. They will still have their lesbian ‘community’ but that will mean texting their friends Sarah & Jo and Claire & Debs and arranging to meet up at their (straight) local pub for the evening. Any involvement with the wider LGBT community will be more minimal like maybe watching the Pride Parade once a year or occasionally reading something on an LGBT website about some awful transphobes who are attacking the LGBT community. They will think back to the transwomen they knew 10 – 15 years ago who were nice people who just wanted to get on with their lives.

  3. Young lesbians identifying as transmen rather than as lesbians and, for the few who do, a lack of access to a real lesbian community which could introduce them to an alternative to the current discourse and give them the opportunity to discuss shared issues, learn from others’ experiences and have other lesbian women on their side. Young lesbians who aren’t accepted or feel isolated in their school, family, community etc will seek out an LGBT youth group and this community they reach out to will heavily endorse the transactivist agenda as part and parcel (and absolutely central) to their identity. Where else do they go and how do they know that there is anything else?

  4. The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men).

  5. The reason you are probably all aware of – the risks of speaking out, which are increased if you are a lesbian as it is coming from your ‘own’ community and being a lesbian puts you under suspicion of being trans-exclusionary (ie penis-exclusionary) anyway. If you run a lesbian business or events, you can’t risk being anything other than pro the trans agenda or they will destroy your livelihood. And I’m sure most of us have seen the threats and actual violence meted out to those who dare to disagree. There’s also a fear about just broaching the subject with another actual female lesbian because you don’t know how many of you are onside so it’s a risk. From tentatively raising the issue with a select few, I do know lesbian friends who have got concerns about this but we are very cautious and tentative about saying anything to other women because of the risk. The bigger stories like the closure of MichFest ( www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Womyns-Music-Festival-to-End-after-40-Years-447/ ) and the men wielding baseball bats to keep the lesbians in check on Women’s Marches and Pride Parades ( gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/transdykes-the-anti-lesbian-antifa/ ) are just symbols of the way we are being policed and the consequences for what is left of lesbian events, lesbian-run businesses etc, if we don’t keep in line.

  6. Finally, simply, as I’ve explained above, another reason some of ‘us’ don't oppose or seem to actively support transactivism is that not all of ‘us’ are actually ‘us’. As lesbians step away from the LGBT 'community' and more ‘lesbian and queer women’ emerge from the two groups referred to above, an increasing proportion of ‘us’ are actually a subset of heterosexual men and women who loathe lesbians and support the transactivist agenda - but, because of the way language is being twisted, you’d never know that.

OP posts:
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 24/01/2018 00:18

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/the-wanted-project/amp/
Orpheliac I don't know if you saw this.

iwantmycommunityback · 24/01/2018 00:14

But this is a really well written piece, you should post it elsewhere too.

Thank-you. Where else should I post it? I want more people to be aware of what is going on as so many think these changes are the next progressive step in advancing LGBT rights - but I can't risk being outed as not being on board with the trans agenda. Sad

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 23/01/2018 23:58

@Deadlylampshade Yes, I realize it looks like I am advocating for things to be underground. Not exactly. Of course being a lesbian can be out and about and in your face, so to speak.

But the agenda of the LGBT now seems to be complete inclusion of trans to the point where there is no difference between a woman and a trans woman and no difference between a transsexual woman and a trans woman who was a man yesterday and has signed a bit of paper and changed their name!

By lesbian agenda I wasn't really meaning just being lesbian, but rather doing things in their community, creating their own community.

Maybe some of those friendships will ensure other like-minded women will come on board and share info and provide links or content in safe places for those who are newly coming out etc.

I hate the fact sometimes things have to be so bloody sneaky, and maybe some will be free and feel free not to be sneaky' but I think sneaky is OK, because men are sneaky fuckers. (And I say that as a happily married woman! - AKA not all men!)

iwantmycommunityback · 23/01/2018 23:47

This is what happens to lesbians who are suspected of TERFdom, even if they actually welcome trans people into their business Sad

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2018/01/11/trans-teen-apologizes-for-campaign-against-lesbian-octogenarians/#more-10763

OP posts:
iwantmycommunityback · 23/01/2018 23:30

It's absolute madness, women should not have to accept a trans woman as a lesbian and certainly shouldn't be bullied into it out of fear of been prejudice. Tbh I don't really have many words, I'm shocked. How on earth can a man wear eyeliner and say he is a woman. Are trans men doing this to gay men also?

I think it's nowhere near as common but I have come across it occasionally, for example:

thoughtcatalog.com/jaime-woo/2013/10/gay-men-dont-get-a-free-pass-to-ignore-trans-issues/

Take, for instance, gay cis men’s sexual relationships to gay trans men, and the fundamental resistance to accept trans men as partners. Part of the problem is that gay cis men can be wholly invested in sexual orientation without extending that interest to gender identity, even though liminal spaces exist between the two. And thus, the privileged role of the penis in signaling maleness serves to delegitimize the inclusion of gay trans men in a non-exoticized fashion. In the view of some gay cis men, gay trans men are not men; vagina is verboten. Under one umbrella and yet so far apart. It’s why Buck Angel with his same-sex pornographic work is so important in its challenge to this anachronous concept.

OP posts:
Deadlylampshade · 23/01/2018 23:25

Argh it’s so frustrating becaus eon one hand yes she could go and carry out her ‘lesbian agenda’ (that term tickles me because what it means is fancying women and generally being a lesbian) in private but surely that’s the whole point of lesbian groups. If we push being a lesbian underground again then we have literally stepped back about 100 years.

It’s so unfair!!!!

Italiangreyhound · 23/01/2018 23:20

It's not my place to tell others how to conduct their lives but I really wanted to say to that woman, to carry on meeting lesbians in private, yes, she won't get funding or be able to use university rooms for free. However, she will be able to have a genuine lesbian agenda.

Plus I'd try and find the stronger women who might be willing to stay in the official group and coast. Be part of the group so that if young lesbians turn up they can befriend them. However, I'd knock on the head helping, let the others make her coffee and put out the chairs, we've been the waitresses and chefs of the world too long!

Plus no woman should ever need to sleep with anyone to avoid the title 'Terf'. If anyone gets that accusation can they just call it out for the rape apology it is? It's not that women should not have to sleep with men, or lesbians should not have to sleep with trans women, its'anyone/everyone, or rather no one should ever have to sleep with anyone against their will and they should not be required to give reasons why they don't want to either!

Italiangreyhound · 23/01/2018 23:15

@IamtheOrpheliac "I don't like to feel that I'm freezing anyone out and I have known a few lovely trans people, although admittedly mostly trans men."

I think you've hit the nail on the head with don't like freezing anyone out. I think as women we are socialized to be inclusive and caring, not to hurt people's feelings. I am very like this, probably too nice for my own good.

I'm one of those straight middle aged women the world is full of.

I read that Reddit link, someone linked to before.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/

I felt real sympathy for the woman in that link, and for you.

You said "I want to be inclusive to trans women, I just don't understand why their needs have to be centred in every discussion."

I am all for dialogue etc, in fact in some circles I am pretty muh a push over! However, I think it is right for women to push back against this behaviour.

Our natural (or socialized) tendency is to talk and find common ground. If/when it doesn't exist, I think we should channel our energies elsewhere.

guardianfree · 23/01/2018 21:51

@cromeyellow0
It's heartbreaking isn't it? We're going back to the Victorian times with the complete denial of women's sexuality unless it's in relation to men.

cromeyellow0 · 23/01/2018 15:52

Very revealing article from @FemalesFighting:
coventryobserver.co.uk/news/coventry-teenager-wants-to-promote-tolerance-by-speaking-about-trials-of-questioning-gender/

Let's scrutinize this hackneyed celebration of heroic trans journey:

  1. “When I was 16, I started off going to an LGBT+ group called Prism, which I went to when I was still female [sic!] and decided that I needed more help."
Look at PRISM's webpage for resources: www.prismlgbtq.org/links.html Top two links are trans; five mentions of "trans" on the page and one of "gender variant", including Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence. Lesbian not mentioned.
  1. ““Then I went to Cams [CAMHS presumably]. Cams were very supportive. They were the ones who helped me come to terms with being transgender."
  1. “I class myself as a straight guy who likes girls. ... I’ve had crushes on girls but never really had the bravery to ask them out because I was transgender.”

A lesbian woman in Coventry would have a small but viable pool of potential partners. But what are the prospects for a woman who thinks she's "straight"? How many straight women are looking for a female, even one with a bit of facial fuzz from testosterone?

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 14:07

Brilliantly written post.

I do still half wonder if we need to sort out proper separation of "old school LGB" (ie sex based attraction) and "lgbtqiabcdefg" (snowflakery)

HuckfromScandal · 23/01/2018 12:54

I have read this with growing horror and astonishment.
As a mid 40's straight female - I feel entirely helpless to do anything to help. What can I do? I can't bare to see our rights as females undermined, but to see that it effects Lesbians so much is truly breaking my heart.

Momo18 · 23/01/2018 12:12

Wow this is really shocking, I mean I know this trans business has got out of hand but I never even considered how it may impact lesbians.

It's absolute madness, women should not have to accept a trans woman as a lesbian and certainly shouldn't be bullied into it out of fear of been prejudice. Tbh I don't really have many words, I'm shocked. How on earth can a man wear eyeliner and say he is a woman. Are trans men doing this to gay men also?

Datun · 23/01/2018 11:32

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle

I watched that rad fem link, then forgot to come out of YouTube.

And so started listening, inadvertently, to a man saying of course a neovagina is a real vagina, you have sex with it, what else is it for?

Pootlebug · 23/01/2018 11:24

Like others on this thread I'm a straight woman in my early 40s. I would like to help but unsure what I can do apart from talk to people about the reasons why I believe that trans identifying males are not women, and the reasons it is harmful to many different women in many different situations to identify them as such.

If there is anything else I can and should be doing, please shout!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/01/2018 10:01

4) The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men)

Why is this? I first started to notice it in the late 80s and early 90s when lesbian women pulled out all stops to support gay men in the AIDS era. My feeling then was that these women often did give a shiny shite about men and pleasing them because they did rather become their surrogate mothers, cleaners, cooks, nurses, hand-holders and advocates - putting lesbian and feminist issues on the backburner as they did. I rarely saw any acknowledgement from gay men though. In fact, I often saw outright hatred for all women. Oddly, I also saw lesbian women try to 'appropriate AIDS' as if it were their problem - hence the dental dam (often with lace sewn on) for sex that was of such low risk to be negligible. I've often wondered if gay men are somehow jealous of straight men because they get to appropriate women's labour and gay men don't. I've also long suspected that they are suspicious of lesbians because they know damn well that they benefit from the patriarchy and they don't want pesky feminists messing this up. I also suspect that they don't like feminists pissing in their pool re laws regarding pornography and the like. Anyone else got other ideas?

AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2018 10:01

If there's any online space that really needs to hear this it's Tumblr, where the brainwashing of young lesbians is at its worse (except maybe in universities).

Not too long ago I saw a bunch of adult trans women go after a 15 year old girl for very tentatively saying that she didn't like the idea of sex with a penis. Nothing like seeing a bunch of grown men sexually harass a child and try to browbeat her into agreeing to sex that she's already said she doesn't want under the guise of "activism" to really clarify what's going on.

moofolk · 23/01/2018 09:56

OP I've heard similar things from older lesbians who feel pushed out of the community. One talked about identifying as 'Lesbian Plus', a super lesbian, as a pushback against the ever growing acronym. (LGBTQIA+).

But this is a really well written piece, you should post it elsewhere too. Thanks

AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2018 09:50

They later tried to revisionist history it as "no, we meant OUR underwear" but a. the original comments by Drew Devaux that started the whole thing are still publicly available and people can read them and b. trying to coerce unwilling people into your underpants isn't OK either.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 23/01/2018 09:48

I couldn't believe my eyes when I first came across the idea of 'breaking through the cotton ceiling' and saw it being taken seriously as a legitimate aim. It's an unvarnished rape image. How are people coming out with this stuff and not being prosecuted for threatening behaviour and homophobic hate speech?

HairyBallTheorem · 23/01/2018 09:43

I'm a straight woman, and the cotton ceiling was my peakiest of all peak trans moments.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2018 09:31

The cotton ceiling was my peak trans. Not that there haven't been plenty of other peaks since, but the idea that lesbians don't have a right to say no to cock? No, off you fuck, not having that.

I'm bi, not lesbian, and very angry that the destruction of the lesbian community is being spearheaded by other bisexual women who like cosplaying as lesbians for whatever idiotic reason. There's always been an issue with bisexual women trying to bring their male partners into lesbian spaces, but it used to be generally understood that this was rude and inconsiderate and if you really couldn't bear to be apart from your bepenised partner for a few hours then you could just fuck off somewhere else. I was not happy to see that that had changed, and have been pushing back against it as hard as I can. As far as I'm concerned even bi women are basically provisional guests in spaces meant for lesbian women and should leave if lesbians don't want us there. Trying to inflict your boyfriend on the space is way out of line.

I worry for the young lesbians coming up in that environment, because almost all of the ones I've known well enough that they feel comfortable talking about personal stuff have said that they've been coerced or assaulted by trans women pushing the "you're a bigot if you don't accept the ladystick" line. Brings out the mama bear in me like nothing else.

iwantmycommunityback · 23/01/2018 08:52

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle Brave women speaking up about this, especially at a Women's March - which should be where we can address these issues. Sad

OP posts:
LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 22/01/2018 22:46

I posted this on another thread and thought it might be good here as well...

Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/01/2018 22:36

Iwant thank you for writing this (so very eloquently)

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