Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transactivism and the lesbian community

187 replies

iwantmycommunityback · 21/01/2018 18:05

I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few days in particular about transactivism and lesbians and thought I might try to put some of it into writing, partly to try to make sense of it and partly because I keep still seeing people refer to the ‘LGBT’ or ‘LGBTQ’ community and equating transactivism with lesbian and gay rights.

I think the most obvious impact of transactivism is on young lesbians being encouraged to identify as heterosexual transmen and to subject themselves to damaging medical treatment, the effects of which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I think Janice Turner’s article in the Times already covers that issue very well: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

One of the problems for young lesbians (in addition to the rise in lesbophobia particularly among the young) is that, when they reach out to ‘their’ community, eg join an LGBT group for support, what they get isn’t their community at all but something very hostile.

Gender critical feminists will be familiar with the idea of trans-identified males co-opting women’s identities, women’s rights, women’s spaces etc for their own ends but there are other forms of appropriation going on, particularly in the (former) LGBT ‘community’ (including transsexuals themselves having been co-opted by people who don’t have body dysphoria and who marginalise them as ‘truscum’) . For lesbians, in addition to the appropriation of womanhood, I think the two main additional identity appropriations that cause problems are:

Transbians

These are heterosexual biological males who identify as women and, therefore, as lesbians and have hijacked our community (support groups, social groups, bars, forums, you name it) and believe that lesbians should be open to having sex with someone with a penis if they ‘identify’ as a woman (see ‘the cotton ceiling’). This group has widened further e.g. including ‘transfeminine men’ and men who identify as a woman part-time (so get to walk through life as a heterosexual man but just ‘identify’ as a lesbian for a few hours to access a lesbian group or lesbian club night where they are of course the most oppressed person ever and must be centred at all times).

As well as being included in our groups, they are held up as examples to us eg for International Women’s Day one group had a talk from an ‘inspirational woman’ who was a biological male, who hadn’t had any surgery, was dressed as a bloke (not that that should make any difference..), had a bit of stubble going on and identified as non-binary (pronouns something like ‘zie’) not as a woman. Like, not only could they not find an actual woman who was inspirational enough to fill that spot, they couldn’t even find a man who was prepared to say they were a woman. Stuff like this is being funded by charity grants intended for women and for lesbian and gay people.

‘Queer’ straight trans allies

This is pretty much a consequence of the above. For those who don’t know, queer is now used as an all-encompassing term for anyone who doesn’t identify as a heterosexual “cis” person. However, it is also preferred by certain people over terms like lesbian, gay and bisexual because it does away with what are considered the rigid boundaries of ‘gender’ and sexuality e.g. lesbian and gay meaning being attracted to the same sex, bisexual as being attracted to ‘both’ sexes, when certain people reject these categories and the idea that there are two sexes.

Take, for example, Lily Madigan who is a biological male who has now come out as a lesbian and is dating a woman. Let’s presume for a moment that this woman (let’s call her Chloe) is a) a biological female b) and a passionate trans uber-ally. Chloe is a bio female who is dating a bio male with a penis who wears a pink hoodie and identifies as a woman. Say, before that, Chloe was dating a bio male with a penis who wears a blue hoodie and is, therefore, a man. Maybe in her next relationship, she will date a bio male with a penis who has purple hair and identifies as ‘genderqueer’. Therefore, Chloe can say that she dates men, women and genderqueer people, including both cisgender and trans people. Therefore, she is a queer or pansexual woman.

Along with the transbians, these ‘queer’ woman become involved in what was formerly the lesbian and bisexual women’s community. However, these trans uber-allies have a lot of views that are contrary to the interests particularly of lesbians. They believe that lesbians have ‘cis’ privilege and also that lesbians (along with gay men) are the most privileged people in the LGBT community. They believe that lesbians are narrow-minded and transphobic for only wanting to date other biological women and oppress transwomen who can’t break through the ‘cotton ceiling’ of their underwear.

I’m not even sure when this stuff started because, like most of us, due to the blurring of the meaning of words, I just didn’t see it happening. A lot of the main online websites, blogs and forums for lesbians started to change, with different women running them and, over time, a shift in the tone – lots about trans inclusion and more references to being ‘queer’ and open to relationships with anyone, about how some people (the lesbians) had privilege in our community and should prioritise these other people, less representation of butch women (despite the talk of blurring of gender boundaries/genderfluidity) etc.

It was only years later, someone who knew the women who had been running one of these websites was talking about who they were and who they were in relationships (bio females in relationships with bio males, basically) that the penny finally dropped with me that these were straight women appropriating our identity and lecturing at us and marginalising us in our own community.

This blurring of the language enables them to do it – but even in cases where you can see it for yourself (e.g. if you are looking at what is clearly a straight couple, who you know will be read by everyone they meet as a straight couple, even if the guy is wearing a bit of eyeliner), you couldn’t say anything as you couldn’t suggest that he wasn’t a woman (or genderqueer or whatever).

Why aren’t the LGB community (in particular lesbians) speaking out more?

  1. Firstly, I think it takes a while to see what it going on (for a number of reasons including the blurring of language, the shutting down of any discussion or even thought on the issue e.g. through the repetition of mantras such as transwomen are women, positive experience of/friendships with traditional transsexuals and not understanding how much the trans movement has changed, misrepresentation of this issue in what we consider to be ‘our’ trusted (LGB) news outlets, organisations, websites etc, the conflating of trans issues with gay issues that aren’t really comparable if you actually give them any thought but on the surface seem similar to negative things that have happened to you and feel personal to you resulting in a tendency to just automatically react against and feel angry about any opposition, especially if you are being told that it is ‘anti-LGBT’ and coming from ‘anti-LGBT’ organisations).

  2. Some lesbians aren’t really that involved any more so aren’t aware of what is going on. Many lesbians will have accessed the LGB community, lesbian support groups, lesbian/gay bars when they first came out, when they were looking for a relationship, in times of difficulties etc but are now happily settled in a relationship and don’t feel the need to access those resources. They will still have their lesbian ‘community’ but that will mean texting their friends Sarah & Jo and Claire & Debs and arranging to meet up at their (straight) local pub for the evening. Any involvement with the wider LGBT community will be more minimal like maybe watching the Pride Parade once a year or occasionally reading something on an LGBT website about some awful transphobes who are attacking the LGBT community. They will think back to the transwomen they knew 10 – 15 years ago who were nice people who just wanted to get on with their lives.

  3. Young lesbians identifying as transmen rather than as lesbians and, for the few who do, a lack of access to a real lesbian community which could introduce them to an alternative to the current discourse and give them the opportunity to discuss shared issues, learn from others’ experiences and have other lesbian women on their side. Young lesbians who aren’t accepted or feel isolated in their school, family, community etc will seek out an LGBT youth group and this community they reach out to will heavily endorse the transactivist agenda as part and parcel (and absolutely central) to their identity. Where else do they go and how do they know that there is anything else?

  4. The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men).

  5. The reason you are probably all aware of – the risks of speaking out, which are increased if you are a lesbian as it is coming from your ‘own’ community and being a lesbian puts you under suspicion of being trans-exclusionary (ie penis-exclusionary) anyway. If you run a lesbian business or events, you can’t risk being anything other than pro the trans agenda or they will destroy your livelihood. And I’m sure most of us have seen the threats and actual violence meted out to those who dare to disagree. There’s also a fear about just broaching the subject with another actual female lesbian because you don’t know how many of you are onside so it’s a risk. From tentatively raising the issue with a select few, I do know lesbian friends who have got concerns about this but we are very cautious and tentative about saying anything to other women because of the risk. The bigger stories like the closure of MichFest ( www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Womyns-Music-Festival-to-End-after-40-Years-447/ ) and the men wielding baseball bats to keep the lesbians in check on Women’s Marches and Pride Parades ( gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/transdykes-the-anti-lesbian-antifa/ ) are just symbols of the way we are being policed and the consequences for what is left of lesbian events, lesbian-run businesses etc, if we don’t keep in line.

  6. Finally, simply, as I’ve explained above, another reason some of ‘us’ don't oppose or seem to actively support transactivism is that not all of ‘us’ are actually ‘us’. As lesbians step away from the LGBT 'community' and more ‘lesbian and queer women’ emerge from the two groups referred to above, an increasing proportion of ‘us’ are actually a subset of heterosexual men and women who loathe lesbians and support the transactivist agenda - but, because of the way language is being twisted, you’d never know that.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2018 09:38

@Spending2muchtimeonMN I'm not a lesbian but I know some and I feel so sorry that your community has been so badly influenced by trans activism. I wonder if there are any glimmers of hope where protected sex category is being successfully used? Such a shame Stonewall, who should be fighting for your rights, is fighting against them!

Spending2muchtimeonMN · 21/04/2018 08:58

I thought it was worth bumping this thread. I think we've all seen an influx of new posters recently with a range of tactics (e.g. trying to get us to say something that they can plaster everywhere as transphobic, claiming that they were once 'terfs' but 'saw the light' etc) and one thing I've seen a few times from them is claiming that they either are a lesbian (or that undefinable 'queer woman') or are concerned about lesbian rights.

As a lesbian, I have seen this movement absolutely destroy my community and it is infinitely worse for young lesbians.

Everytime I see them mention lesbians (who don't rate a mention elsewhere where we've been replaced by the more-acceptable-to-men 'queer' women) I want to ask them what they mean by lesbian:

Do they mean a biological female who is attracted only to other biological females? (in which case, this is something which is regarded as inherently transphobic)

Or do they mean a person (who may be a natal male or a natal female) who is attracted to people (with or without a penis) who wear feminine clothing?

Italiangreyhound · 13/04/2018 01:39

"We must build our own exclusive community for the sake of the young lesbians." So true. I am not a lesbian but know young lesbians and really hope that lesbian spaces will be available to them without males.

Wombman · 13/04/2018 01:24

This is all so sad.especially that lesbians have nowhere to go.

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/04/2018 01:11

m.youtube.com/watch?v=f6ywxHAvAds

Blaire White in conversation with Arielle Scarcella.

BlytheByName · 13/04/2018 00:39

Thank you so much OP for your complete summary of what I've seen happen to my community. As others have said it's heartbreaking but we have to find ways to reach out to young lesbians.
I joined a huge FB group last week called Lesbians Unite. I wanted to see what they thought about the cotton ceiling as I'm 53 and have never had to worry about this crap as I'm one of those lesbians that found a partner and wondered off into suburbia to have dinner parties with other lesbian couples.
So I asked the question to the 26k in the group.
It was heartening to see the board light up with responses, all said they were same sex attracted and that did not involve a penis. Scores of them.
Within minutes though, an argument broke out between a couple of whiny, trans identified males and a radical feminist who called them men. And that was that. The debate was removed and the adminis have so far not replied to my message asking why the thread was locked.
I was disappointed about that but not about the clear message that there are still lesbians out there... We just need to find one another.
Meet up is a great idea as is the lesbian alliance fb group.
Perhaps if we keep bumping this thread we can spread the word.
There used to be a great message board for lesbians called Gingerbeer but it's gone very quiet in recent years. It could be revived if people used it.
We must build our own exclusive community for the sake of the young lesbians.
Thank you again OP.

DunedinGirl · 24/03/2018 10:04

My heart breaks reading this. You've articulated the issues marvellously.

DunedinGirl · 24/03/2018 10:04

My heart breaks reading this. You've articulated the issues marvellously.

Verypersonalandcleverusername · 24/03/2018 05:03

Wow. I think that makes me one of the most oppressed/special people on the planet. And isn't that the goal with all this identity politics crap.

Verypersonalandcleverusername · 24/03/2018 05:00

I thought I was well versed in TRA bullshit but straight women married to TIMs and claiming to be gay has me shocked.

But after thinking about it I can see how I am now part of the LGBTQ community. I was AFAB but I'm really a femme crossdressing gay transman. Femme because even though I dress as a man...jeans tshirts etc I'm femme as I like to wear slipon shoes and have long hair.
And while I'm definitely dressing male I do like to sometimes freak it up and crossdress in dresses, make up and heels.
I haven't told my husband I'm a transman but I guess he's now bi as he still likes to have sex with my male vagina.
No hormones or surgery of course. These days that doesn't mean anything.
I think if cis women really searched deep down they too would come to the same conclusion.

SecretsRSecrets · 24/03/2018 02:40

Thank you for this post OP! I have a teenage gay DD.

We raised our DC to be openminded and accepting and, yay, they all are which to me is a beautiful thing. They have friends in all of the LGBTQ categories.

However we also raised them to use critical thinking and always look at every side of an issue. So thankfully they question the behaviour of the TRAs/MRAs, and they do not agree.

We have had many discussions, and they in turn have had many discussions with their peer groups, and surprisingly the kids all agree this is ridiculous. No Kool-aid at their school so far, just kids getting to be kids. Trans kids are completely safe and therefore use their bio loo/changerooms without fear. Hopefully it will stay this way.

They are part of our up and coming generation, so it gives me hope that they are thinking carefully and critically. DD argues like a lawyer and she is especially good at facing down bullies. (She never cries, she just gets calmer and colder). I hope by the time she is old enough to be out in the real world either this situation is resolved or she can connect with even more likeminded people to face this issue.

I am grateful for MN for allowing these discussions, and as worried as I am, it feels hopeful that we can still talk, share links and find support.

SunsetBeetch · 23/03/2018 16:53

A prominent lesbian YouTuber, Arielle Scarcella, has gone terf:

twitter.com/ArielleScarcell/status/976860465962913792?s=19

rowdywoman1 · 20/03/2018 10:11

Maybe a good day to bump this thread as the issues need airing.
Op - do hope that you're OK?

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 12/02/2018 16:08

I feel so sorry for lesbians. I cannot imagine getting abused for my sexuality. And not only are they victims of normal everyday homophobia, they are now called bigots for their sexuality. Attacked from all angles while the virtue signalers basically encourage the abuse. Then ontop of this, young lesbians are being told they are actually men and pressured to transition.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 12/02/2018 13:00

m.facebook.com/groups/764351937100786?ref=content_filter

Just plopping this here.

Lesbians are making a fuss.
I certainly am.
But I do worry i might lose my job over it.

And Lesbians are socialised as women. We tend to give way to male voices. Look at how we put energy into nursing gay men with aids. That compassion defined and still defines Lesbian activism.

Unfortunately we won't all realise we need to extend that compassion to ourselves until it's too late

PositivelyPERF · 10/02/2018 14:18

Sorry, I mean most men, not all, as can be evidenced on Mumsnet. However I think most men on Mumsnet are here because they are the kind of men that respect women and want to learn more about us. Baring the odd TRA/MRA.

PositivelyPERF · 10/02/2018 14:12

You know one of the things I love about women? The fact that when I talk to any women about how these TIMs are trying to bully heir way into female spaces, such as changing rooms, toilets, shelters, etc they are horrified and agree with me, that this needs to stop. But when I mention ‘cotton cealing’ and Male ‘lesbians’ thy are genuinely upset, furious, disgusted and horrified for young lesbians. Most of these women are straight, yet have a deep empathy for young lesbians that are being bullied and manipulated into sex with men.

Men.don’t.get.it! They don’t get it because it doesn’t affect them, other than that Male fantasy of having sex with lesbians. 🙄

BTY I peak transed another client, this morning. 😁

OvaHere · 10/02/2018 11:58

Once you get a vocal bunch of lesbians kicking off about this surely it’s impossible for politicians, Stonewall etc to dismiss them as homophobes / bigots etc. If you want to win you need the gay community on side.

It's really difficult for lesbians to find representation and a voice at the moment.

As a group they are currently very divided into women like the OP, lib fems who support transbians and lesbians who are transitioning themselves.

On top of that all the orgs and media outlets have largely been taken over by trans and trans allies (see Ruth Hunt). It's nice to hear that After Ellen has pushed back though.

Caucho · 10/02/2018 11:20

The problem is the gay community has been discriminated against so much in the past they find it difficult to argue about this new point as they naturally want to protect minorities as they were once in that space too.

I have no problem personally with applying logic but some people for good reasons feel uncomfortable about it. I don’t think groups like Stonewall are fit for purpose any more and the problem with identity politics is when two worlds collide.

Hand wringing right on lefties are tying themselves in knots currently. Gay men like Owen Jones defending against ‘racist’ people who don’t like certain aspects of Islam when these people would happily stone him to death given a chance for his sexuality. Crazy. I do find it mildly amusing sorry.

The truth is eventually you do have to pick a side. You can’t sit on a fence forever. You can’t be gay and pro Islam. Lesbian and pro trans. Well you can when everyone is sensible and moderate but we’re not talking about these people. Radicals of any cause tend to make the most noise and frame the arguments and legislation

Caucho · 10/02/2018 11:04

Lesbians need to shout much louder about this. All women too but do see on these boards that this is already happening (though MN is probably not an accurate reflection of what is happening in real life).

I’m not absolving myself from responsibilities but am a man. And if I say anything I’m not taken seriously and written off from the get go for beings nasty bigot.

So in order of arguments and who is taken seriously.

Men (not at all except perhaps the men who say they’re women)
Women (not much - you’re just radfem terfs)
Lesbians - more so

Once you get a vocal bunch of lesbians kicking off about this surely it’s impossible for politicians, Stonewall etc to dismiss them as homophobes / bigots etc. If you want to win you need the gay community on side.

The things a nonesense but they have more power making that argument as they can’t be dismissed so easily

20nil · 10/02/2018 10:38

Thanks OP for a fantastic post. Solidarity!

KnitFastDieWarm · 10/02/2018 10:21

Oh OP this is heartbreaking and a fantastic summary Sad I’m bisexual and married to a man and I always try to be aware of how I have a certain privilege from being able to ‘pass’ as straight - so it blows my mind at the level of self absorption from people in essentially heterosexual relationships claiming to be more oppressed than lesbians because one of them wears eyeliner Hmm

It’s cultural appropriation, basically, with a hefty dose of good old fashioned ‘all a lesbian needs a is a good shagging (from a penis)’ mentality. I feel desperately sorry for young lesbian and bisexual women these days.

iwantmycommunityback · 10/02/2018 10:06

The Lesbian Rights Alliance now have a Facebook page:

www.facebook.com/LRalliance/

OP posts:
OvaHere · 10/02/2018 10:06

Hi iwant nice to see you are still around.

I was trying to find this thread last night (with no success) to add these links from the GC subreddit posted in the last week.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7wc03y/im_a_young_lesbian_and_the_trans_movement_has_me/

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7wh4hk/straight_women_married_to_tims_taking_over/

iwantmycommunityback · 10/02/2018 10:02

Thanks moofolk Yes it seems to have got a good reaction. I noticed that Lord Lucas, a backbench Conservative peer, retweeted it and that he has retweeted a lot of gender critical stuff so that's another politician with their eyes open to the problems:

twitter.com/LordLucasCD

SuperLoudPoppingAction When I click on that link my browser is warning me against going to that website saying it may be trying to trick me, although I can see from your history that you are a genuine Mumsnetter.

OddBoots I don't know what I'd advise. I used to know what to say to parents of LGB children and advise them to find LGB youth groups in their area but now, particularly for young lesbians, there isn't really anywhere to reach out to. If she already has a girlfriend and isn't involved in any LGBT groups, that's probably the best way to be.

This article about the issues facing young lesbians was published this week:

www.afterellen.com/general-news/553883-despite-cyber-bullying-erasure-young-lesbians-claiming-l-word

Afterellen was one of the many lesbian websites that was taken over by the trans allies but it has since been reclaimed under a new editor. I actually cried when I found it again and started reading some of the articles. Even the articles that aren't political (it covers a lot of popular culture, light stuff), just to see a glimpse of our old community and how things were before this happened.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread