The "Transwomen are women" thing

Men are never a subset of women, and there is no such thing as 'transwomen'. They are just male colonists, attempting to dominate and control women
hear hear

I agree with donkeyskin on the AWS petition, but the reason it was framed this way is that men with a GRC already are women, according to the law. So there is no way to keep them off AWS - the best the organisers can hope for is to draw the line at self-ID.

I grew up thinking feminism had done its job and we were fine now

I gradually learned, not when I was edged out of my job for having a baby, but when 15 year old girls in my dds' year were saying that they had sex with their boyfriend because he wanted to but they didn't really want it, and another was saying it was better to stay with the boyfriend that hit her and wanted blowjobs, because it was better to have a boyfriend than not to. That was when I began to realise that something was amiss - where does this mindset come from =they were supposed to have grown up into an era when women had equal opportunities, shared the housework, and no longer had to keep their sexual needs hidden.

twitter.com/MadamBiro/status/954871790442090496

Bayeux effect. Feeles Alle womannie

OP "Just talk about "natal women" having different needs to "transwomen". Every single time."

I don't think this will help, it's just a rephrase of what we are already saying.

it's impossible to argue with cray cray so I think sticking with facts is just easier tbh.

Sorry to also add - I think pointing out that trans issues are mainly caused by gender stereotypes ingrained in society is helpful as it pushes the argument back to the patriarchy and how men and women are conditioned from birth.

I think there's more intelligent bits to add to that but I'm still learning how to vocalise it.

I will add that I'm learning on Twitter that some people on the left are unaware that TRA are being as forceful and misogynistic as they are. And are completely unaware of the fact that our biology still oppresses is. And they don't join the dots.

Some are men, some are women who've not yet experienced it yet.

I grew up thinking feminism had done its job and we were fine now. Till I got a bit older and had a baby and a few illnesses and found myself surrounded by patriarchy and paternalism and realised I'd never spotted the misogyny around me before. And mn helped of course.

Humbled I inspired a thread!

I'm supposed to be working so will work through the discussion later.

*Would it work better to sidestep the whole "Transwomen are women" mantra instead of taking it on?

Just talk about "natal women" having different needs to "transwomen". Every single time*

I think I'd prefer not to have to say natal women but do in some instances. And I think it helps in those instances.

To me the statement 'transwomen are women is a massive barrier to sensible discussion.' I agree that replying 'no they're not' is another wall from their POV.

I aim to side step the wall without ignoring it. 'Please define a woman for me' helps. I think focusing on sex based experiences in discussion helps. This may actually include reference to the actual biological sex of a trans person - I think saying "I'm not a trans woman, our experiences and issues are different" is pertinent, relating it directly to the way biology affects women's issues and trans issues differently.

Can't remember who it was who said

Only men can be transwomen.
Only women can be transmen.
Don't erase trans reality

But that last line is powerful whilst maintaining that there's a fundamental difference in our historical and present life experiences.

I want to respect trans people's difficulties; not at the expense of women's. Adding some respect demonstrates a willingness to listen. And I'm willing to listen; not heard anything yet other than a description of teen girls attacking a trans woman in a ladies toilet.

It's crazy but great that so many trans women actually agree with us.

I'm collecting useful phrases.

(I'm not entirely sure all this is making sense?)

I'm aware to a point, I'm playing into a socialisation game of being the polite woman, but my aim is to play to the game to my advantage and use intelligence, empathy and hard hitting facts.

Well..the closeted ones might!
But yes, men know that TIMS are not women. Of course they do. But it's easy virtue signalling to say they believe it, cos it doesn't affect them at all.

I actually think quite a few but only as a tourist attraction. I have friends who are drag queens and they get so many straight men trying (and often succeeding to have sex with them) they call them ‘tranny chasers’ (their words not mine).
Straight men who are curious but only for a try.
I remember a frank conversation where my friend joked he became a drag queen because he was getting older and couldn’t get cock anymore as he was no longer a twink and couldn’t be arsed to go to the gym, so he put a dress and a wig on and suddenly his supply doubled.

I do wonder how many British heterosexual men, especially far left liberal types, would have or consider having an intimate relationship with a TIM. They consider them to be actual, literal women, after all.

I think that's true, yes. But I looked at a Twatter thread linked to on here (I NEVER look at politics on Twitter, just use it for work) and most of the people saying "transwomen are women" were men.

Of course they were saying that. But they don't believe it:

twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

The trans issue needs to get into the awareness of MorrisZapp's
People with literally no opinion: 40%
People who think the word for a TIM is 'tranny' and laugh at the concept: 52%

Not sure how that might happen but until it does the TRAs will have a disproportionate amount of influence by gaslighting and using emotional blackmail.

Ladyboys don’t say that they are women do they?

YY Donkey Skin.

We are women. They are not. Fact. TRAs fall into one of two camps - deluded or malevolent. Enough of being understanding, cooing over them and their delusions. They are not just intent on shoving women under a bus, they are also shoving genuine dysmorphic men who find some peace in "living" as women while acknowledging they are still biological men, under the bus too.

Am I worried about being called a bigot? No. Am I worried about being called a TERF? No.

They are entitled to their opinions but facts are sacred. They are men and all the preening, lipstick and eyelash fluttering in the world won't change that. Will it take them getting prostate cancer to acknowledge the difference between biology and this made up concept of gender? (Or will they say they have lady prostates..?)

Can we have a thread listing all the differences between TIMs and women?

DonkeySkin 👏

Unless women can plainly name what is going on here with the trans movement - which is a male supremacist religion designed to legally and ontologically obliterate women and girls - we are going to lose, and referring to trans-identified men as ‘transwomen’ (or 'trans women' or 'transgender women') prevents us from doing that.

Playing along with the polite 'transwomen are transwomen' lie has allowed feminist critique of gender identity ideology to essentially devolve into arguments about whether ‘transwomen’ have the necessary experience of sexism to be considered 'women'. And it’s all such bullshit. It’s ALL bullshit. Men can never be women, no matter what they feel, no matter how much surgery they have. And men who present in a feminine manner are never treated as women, ever. The way that so-called progressives coddle them and prioritise their every demand over the needs of actual women demonstrates that.

Unfortunately, the 'keep trans women off AWS' petition played right into this, by framing it as being about 'transwomen and women', instead of what it was really about, which is women and men. This has allowed progressives to frame the petition as ‘targeting a very marginalized and vulnerable group of women for discrimination'. It’s not, it’s about keeping MEN off AWS, but even the petition couldn’t or wouldn't say that. It struck me how crazy that is: that the terms of the debate are so controlled by TRAs that even women who recognise the trans movement as a male takeover of feminism are afraid and/or unwilling to name ‘trans women’ AS MEN. To say that this is about male dominance, male control of women. Feminists are bound to lose unless we can expose the dynamic at play here, and name TIMs as men.

Men are never a subset of women, and there is no such thing as 'transwomen'. They are just male colonists, attempting to dominate and control women in the way that sexist men have always done, and women need to acquire the courage to name them as such.

Pink News isn't called Penis News for nothing.

However I have been extremely heartened by some very 'off-script' below the line comments recently.

Maybe the wholesale erasure of homosexuality, is having an impact on the readers, if not the wildly-drunk-on-kool-aid writers.

Pink News is an incredibly biased, incredibly misogynistic website. Don't be too disheartened by the stuff you read there - it's the gay and trans version of Stormfront.

I happened to be on Pink News yesterday (was looking for a particular article and got to browsing). Wish I hadn't

They are stating, baldly and as fact, that the puberty blockers are just dandy, completely reversible, no side effects etc (very clever sleight of hand actually - there is no evidence of side effects because there is no evidence!)

This is how we come to be demonised for speaking otherwise - "look how irrational they [women] are, look how they want to prevent something completely harmless, nay beneficial, for these poor suffering trans kids, all to keep their own privilege intact..."

It's like bloody Gollum/Sméagol.

Imagine if a trans woman died of or was permanently harmed by a treatable conditional just because medical professionals weren’t aware of her biological needs and misdiagnosed

The problem is that TRAs are vehemently against medical professionals being allowed to know their sex. I'm not sure how that squares with their specific medical needs though.

There seems to be a general trend of not wanting to say no to the kids, from letting small children dictate to parents, to letting teens and twenty-something ideologues heavily influence policy-making.

This is, imho, a huge mistake. The job of adults is to let kids try stuff, think idiotic things and have tantrums, while maintaining sensible boundaries; in fact, the tension seems a necessary condition for progress (increasing maturity in individuals or social progress in society).

It’s putting too much responsibility on immature people to listen to them too much. How will today’s trans allies feel in twenty years’ time faced with the knowledge that they advocated for children to be allowed to damage their their healthy bodies, if those former children are asking how the fuck this was allowed to happen?