Tavistock psychologist is worried about rush to label kids as trans

I think she is highlighting the enormous pressure the clinic is under to be less cautious, and for clinical judgement to be overridden in favour of social justice.
This was her interview with the Guardian a little while ago
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/19/nhs-clinic-trans-rights-storm-gender-identity-specialist-centre-transgender?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Thank goodness for the comments, it really is heartening to see the majority see how abusive this current trend can be.

I for one am thankful that the Times is putting this whole nonsense under the spotlight

I think one can operate in life without being cognisant of any gender identity. I wouldn’t appreciate someone challenging me on this.

I don't understand this. If you substitute 'gender identity' for 'faith in god' it reads as if we all have an innate faith in God but some of us just aren't cognisant of it? Which is just plain wrong.

Are you suggesting you think everyone within a sex class truly does possess a matching identity with common characteristics (that are unrelated to our bodies), but that some people are just....unaware?

So, for example, you and I are both biologically female but we share a common identity with each other and with every other female? And it's nothing to do with our bodies, nothing to do with our experiences, it's just...similar brains which are distinguishable from male brains?

What is gender identity?
What do people who believe it exists claim it is?
Well, not that there is ever an explanation of it that isn't circular, but certain definitions are ruled out:
It isn't recognition of ones bodily sex. (This would mean no one was transgender)
It isn't preferences or desires or convictions (eg I know myself to have this body but I wish I had that one)
It isn't individual identity. Individual identity would be valid. No, 'gender' is by definition a group or class of people sharing common characteristics.

It's the concept of a group identity.
But, unrelated to bodies or life experiences. Further, it's a concept that is claimed to coincide and correlate with a sex, but with rare exceptions.

It's just entirely false. Medics need to challenge this. People born with ovaries don't have an innate, cerebral identity they share which is independent of their bodies and experiences.

So yes, anyone who claims an identity AND ALSO CLAIMS that this identity is SHARED by an entire group of people of one biological sex, needs to be disabused of that idea.

This is the crux of it all.

Y believes Y = X.
This can only be true if X = Y also.

X doesn't = Y. So that's that.

You are obviously well informed MsBeaujangles, and I am not trying to be obtuse or rude.

I just want to push for a clear explanation of what people mean when they say gender identity.

I think one can operate in life without being cognisant of any gender identity. I wouldn’t appreciate someone challenging me on this. I identify with my natal sex and kick against any expectation that people have of my choices because of this.
Not everyone at the Tavi identifies with a specific gender and they are not encouraged to adopt a binary one.

Barrak, I don’t think they medicalise gender or being GNC and children are only referred because they have complex mental health needs that are impacting on them leading fulfilling lives.
Gender dysphoria is different to gender non conformity and issues around tolerating a sense of mismatch between natal sex and GI will be encouraged.
The conference isn’t an academic one it is a practice based one. Non evidence based ideas will inevitably be challenged by academics and evidence based practitioners. As will propaganda.
I have no doubt that people will come with agendas. If the room has a number of psychotherapists in it, much questioning will take place. I predict they’ll be some flouncing!

"They don’t seek to challenge or change an individual’s gender identity."

Perhaps they should. Not change from one identity to another, bit to challenge entirely the idea that there is such a medical thing as gender identity at all. If a patient holds a false belief, by all means listen, but don't in any way validate that belief, and do provide sound medical evidence that the belief is contrary to facts.

If a patient approaches a doctor convinced that they need homeopathic pills or else they will die, the doctor will hopefully explain that those pills are without benefit and no doctor can prescribe them in good conscience, because to lie to a patient about the efficacy of a useless sugar pill is unethical. And hopefully that doctor might investigate the real medical problem and discuss genuine treatment options. But 'do no harm' should be an unbreakable principle.

If an ethical doctor wouldn't provide sugar pills to treat an imaginary condition, why the hell would they provide hormones and surgery?

Oh this conference!

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/improving-support-trans-youth-conference/

I was thinking it would be a proper academic or medical conference. Sounds like it will just be more kool aide, but here's hoping Wren introduces some criticality.

The kool aide drinking in the support professions is astounding.

I think the memorandum fits with an approach the Tavi has always adopted. They don’t seek to challenge or change an individual’s gender identity. They do seek to enable patients to feel comfortable in their own skill and to tolerate feelings of uncertainty and discomfort.
I don’t think the memorandum implies physical interventions should be automatically provided or that previous ways of working need to be changed.

Pencils. I read that to be 10% who are referred decide not to opt for treatment whereby they either choose not to attend the initial consultation by the time the date arrives or following the initial consultation decide not to pursue treatment (treatment includes talking therapy and would always begin with this).

I am pleased to see that the conference may look at the information going into schools. There is a huge pressure to persuade adults to 'step away' from gender non conforming children - keep confidentiality, don't share with parents, accept medical experimentation and self harm and don't worry about any underlying mental health issues - all core principles of "Working Together' being subverted by a group of adults with their own agenda.
And nobody is formally challenging this. Where are the safeguarding leads? Where are the Headteachers? Why is nobody joining up the dots?

Maybe. It would be good to have some clarification.

This is why it is so very alarming that Bernadette Wren has disclosed that only 10% of children referred to Tavi change their minds and opt out of the treatment programme.

She may have meant discontinue with the service. Therapy counts as treatment, too, not just medication.

Yes I've seen the 80% desistance rate talked about fairly widely. As I understand it that figure relates to children with gender identity issues who are treated with watchful waiting.

This is why it is so very alarming that Bernadette Wren has disclosed that only 10% of children referred to Tavi change their minds and opt out of the treatment programme.

How can we account for this massive difference?

I hope this post answers the questions I have been asked. I am posting on both threads about The Times article as I can’t recall which questions came from which.

There are around 40 staff working with the GIDS service (across the London and Leeds clinics). Not all of them are full time. Recently, the service has increased with over 30 new members of staff. Prior to this the team was relatively small. NHS England funded the increase in staffing because waiting times were well over the 18 weeks requirement. The increase in referrals has been huge and the waiting time, even after expansion of the team, is well over 6 months.

The children that get referred to GIDS have complex needs, they are not simply GNC. Many have autism and co-morbid mental health issues and many experience suicide ideation or have attempted suicide. The service does not try and intervene or change patients’ gender identity (as being GNC is not a mental health issue in itself) and focus is on the all aspects of the child and their lives, not just gender identity. The goal of intervention is to help the young people referred feel comfortable and content in themselves.

The team are gatekeepers to physical intervention and do come across a lot of pressure to ‘deliver’ these. However, there is a multi disciplinary approach and therapists work together to ensure considered decisions are made. Even when physical interventions are given there is a staged approach. Hypothalamic blockers are considered after onset of puberty and cross-sex hormones only after 16. Surgery is only available from adult services (post-18) only. Tavi staff have published a number of articles about the challenges associated with the gatekeeping role and the pressure they come under. I don't think anyone is failing to 'speak out' because the team are getting on with supporting young people and holding the multiple boundaries they need to hold.

The conference discussed in the article is open to a range of professionals (the cost to attend is only £40) and its purpose is to discuss how academics, health practitioners, youth workers and charities can work together to better support trans young people. I expect the range of advice currently circulating in schools will be discussed and critiqued.

I have no doubt that the vast majority of staff would resign if they felt ethically compromised by the way in which they were required to work. Work is not hard to come by as the qualifications and experience are transferable to all aspects of child and adolescent mental health and so I don’t think fear of being out of work would be a factor.

A reference for the 80% desistance rate can be found in an article written by Helen Hingley-Jones, Sarah Davidson and Claire Gregor (Understanding the Experience of Parents of Pre-pubescent Children with Gender Identity Issues, Child and Adolescent Social Work, Child and Adolescent Social Work, June 2015, Volume 32, Issue 3, pp 237–246).

Sorry - it is Dr Wobbly who has the audi - doesn't like to get it messed up.

It would make good fan fiction - the further adventures of Helga

I miss Mermans too. I keep clicking my shortcut to see if it's come back.

Yep anything that upsets them is definitely a good barometer. I miss mermans (wonders what Helga Iceland is up to these days in her Audi)

You can see by the way that Mermaids cheerleader mimmymum is frothing at the article that it is right on the money. Anything that upsets Mermaids must be on the right track.

Schools have always been susceptible to dodgy psychology. If you look back at the popularity of things like ‘brain gym’ you can see the rubbish that can get into schools, partly because teachers are really busy so don’t have time to critically investigate these things. But the potential harm of the current trans stuff is terrifying.

You didn't even see this level of questioning or dissent a mere eight months ago.

There is absolutely a pushback.

And whilst the transborg will ratchet the pressure, they have nothing left in their arsenal.

They've used every disputed argument going. Hormone washes, oppression, suicide statistics, abuse, equality, whiny unfairness.

There is nowhere else to go.

There is no depth to their argument, no logic, no collective agreement.

'Transwomen are women' is not going to be cutting the mustard for very much longer.

But it is possible that will happen if they do speak out now, or if they don't in a few years

The article referred to an upcoming conference. I suspect she might speak out then. This will be behind closed doors. Maybe other HCPs will start to nod. Maybe she will follow with an article in a professional journal. Maybe others will follow ... One can hope.

It's arrogant, lacking in knowledge of children and teenagers and so professionally dangerous.

It's the professionally dangerous part that seems to cut both ways.

As BarackerBarmer says, why don't they speak out?

Answer, probably professional suicide.

As guardian says - why must they speak out? Answer professional suicide when this hits them back in the face and everyone asks why they didn't do something.

It's no joke contemplating the death of your livelihood.

But it is possible that will happen if they do speak out now, or if they don't in a few years.

What a knife edge.

When the existence of your job depends upon timing.