Transgender woman sues over ordeal in male prison

Thanks pencilsinspace that's really helpful, I'm struggling to get my head around it all.

does anyone know if you could have a prison that was for men and women with penises and a prison for men and women without penises.
I guess you cant discriminate on a physical characteristic.

Guardian, I have to say, when the person in question actually isn't transsexual, I can't see what the danger is of putting them in the biologically correct prison either.

if you'd asked me 10 years ago I'd have assumed Tara had fully transitioned though and I still think it's a key part of the confusion.

Trans wings is just going to start more demands for special treatment and prisoners will simply declare they are trans to get where they want to go.

I don't get why transwomen are seen as so much more vulnerable than other vulnerable men in prison.
Why the fuck do they need their own wing?

Damson

Issues around numbers, and also they try to put people near to home where possible so family can visit more easily.

At the moment they would be put away from others and have much less communal living / human contact which would be very difficult.

There are reasons that they want away from the men and in with the women rather than being shut away on their own. Which are valid. If I were Tara I would want in with the women too, not to do anything dodgy but to feel and probably be safer. However, you can't just say anyone who would rather go with the women, sign here.

It is very difficult.

Tara did get moved to a womens prison so the DOJ's assertion that Tara is male from a legal perspective is even more worrying - they deem Tara a man and put Tara in with the women. Yeah, not good.

Itscurtainsforyou - I struggle with why a man, identifying as a woman (and being sure about this), wouldn't have surgery to remove male genitalia.

Several reasons:

• It's major surgery and the results are often not great. It leads to infertility and loss of sexual feeling.

• Many men who identify as women have autogynephilia i.e. becoming sexually aroused at the idea of themselves as a woman. Keeping the penis allows them to do something with this arousal IYSWIM.

• In Tara's case, removing the penis would hinder Tara's career as an escort who advertises their 7" surprise as a USP.

If they did, I don't think I'd have a problem with them going to a female prison (if it were up to me).

I would still have a problem. Men are on average bigger and stronger than women and much more violent. None of these factors are changed by genital surgery.

Is this case it seems that Tara is happy to have ambiguous gender (which is her right), but it makes it very difficult to know how/if she can access services which are segregated on the basis of sex. Is the answer to stop segregating on the basis of sex (obviously this may work better with toilets etc than prisons, safe spaces etc).

Tara identifies as a woman & would probably describe the penis as female.

Prison guidelines are that anyone with a gender recognition certificate (GRC) must be housed according to their legal sex. For trans people without a GRC, decisions are made on a case by case basis. You can get a GRC without having genital surgery. You currently need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and 2 years 'living as' the desired sex.

This is why the self-ID proposals are a big deal - instead of those requirements you'd just have to sign a form.

The answer is absolutely not to stop segregating by sex, especially in situations that affect particularly vulnerable women like prisons. The answer IMO is to strengthen the sex based exceptions in the equality act and to provide whatever 3rd spaces reasonable trans people feel they need for their dignity and safety.

Ah

Mum has heels on as well and Tara doesn't.

The pics that are not posed and give some context around (other people ) tend to give a different impression than the carefully posed, by themselves ones.

I don't understand why people say "women can be tall!! are you saying women who are tall are men???!!!" No. But, look at that person. how would they fit in, in a female environment. They are much bigger, have a history of violence offences, a working dick, I mean, come on.

The solution to this is NOT putting them in with the women, nor is it putting them at risk with the men, but TW are only one group who are at risk in prison amongst men, the whole thing needs to be sorted out.

Trans wings sound like a sensible option, does anyone know if there's any desire for that outside of MN? Or any good reasons why not?

Tara is a man
perfectly capable of coping in a men's prison

I just posted this earlier on Bluestocking as I didn't know there was a thread

I find the official responses heartening as well, like at last some actual consideration of biology!

Tara is an enormous bloke who has clearly spent huge amounts of time posing in front of mirrors to look like a 'sexy lady' and knows how to do the same in front of a camera.

How tall is Tara? The pictures are often taken to show the person looking as feminine as possible. WTF are those breasts about. Anyway. Let's have a pic of Tara next to a standard sized woman or man and see what's what here.

This is Tara with her Mum - she is also slightly behind her mum so would probably look even taller if they stood side by side.

Somehow I think that, if we do get wings for trans prisoners, the transmen wing will be a heck of a lot smaller.

There are no transmen in prison in the UK (unless that's changed very recently).

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

That goes for every person regardless of gender.

I think the reason Tara is doing this is because Tara is a raging narcissist - in the actual self-aggrandising, certified personality disorder type - its the violence, forcing others to concur with his distorted reality, legally taking on massive institutions for "me me me" reasons...

I've heard gay men say they camp it up much more inside prison than out because it affords a weird protection.

Scotland and Northern Ireland don't have any and have to accommodate Cat A women in special wings of men's prisons.

If that's considered an acceptable solution for violent women, surely trans identified male wings in men's prisons would be ok too?

Violence / bullying / sexual violence in prisons is unacceptable. People should be incarcerated but not put into a situation where violence is the norm.

It's easy to see that Tara would have a fucking horrible time in a mens prison as to be honest do lots of men who don't conform to gender stereotypes.

I find it disturbing that the fact this person retains their male genitals and that they are functional is glossed over. The article talks about breasts and says taken hormones for years which would imply to most people that they have somehow turned womanly down below / or at least their dick doesn't work.

It is disturbing that the level and repeated nature of the attacks Tara has carried out - on men - is also glossed over. How tall is Tara? The pictures are often taken to show the person looking as feminine as possible. WTF are those breasts about. Anyway. Let's have a pic of Tara next to a standard sized woman or man and see what's what here.

The risk to female prisoners is not mentioned AT ALL.

I believe that

1. It should not be a given that violence and sexual violence are the norm in prison
2. People who are at risk need to be protected. This does NOT mean stuffing men who are likely to be at risk in with the women for fuck's sake. Large numbers of male sex offenders saying they are "trans" at the moment - it doesn't take a genius to work out why

Problem is that women in prison are not a group that many people care about.

Having said that, no-one wants female prisoners getting pregnant while inside, for a variety of reasons. That is the main reason we split them up, really.

I really struggle with this. I struggle with why a man, identifying as a woman (and being sure about this), wouldn't have surgery to remove male genitalia. If they did, I don't think I'd have a problem with them going to a female prison (if it were up to me).

Can anyone help me understand?

Is this case it seems that Tara is happy to have ambiguous gender (which is her right), but it makes it very difficult to know how/if she can access services which are segregated on the basis of sex. Is the answer to stop segregating on the basis of sex (obviously this may work better with toilets etc than prisons, safe spaces etc).

I don't want to cause offence, I'm just struggling with this.

I was also heartened to see the terminology there.

"Her lawyer, Jane Ryan of Bhatt Murphy, says the government is denying her gender identity.."

Actually the MOJ is accepting her gender identity: they use Tara's preferred pronoun. But they're not conflating gender with sex. Because they've not forgotten Biology 101.

Even if you think trans prisoners should be in women's prisons (I know that's nobody here!) - THERE ISN'T ANYWHERE TO PUT THE VIOLENT ONES!

The women's estate in England and Wales has only one prison capable of accommodating Category A prisoners. Scotland and Northern Ireland don't have any and have to accommodate Cat A women in special wings of men's prisons.

'i find the ministry of justice stance most heartening.'

Same here. I'm surprised and really pleased by it. A bit of sanity on this issue for a change

'Love how they want to escape male violence in the men’s prison after sent down for classic male violence !'

Spot on

I don't know if you have seen this or how well it translates to the UK or short stays - but this phenomenon contradicts the idea TIMs have it the worst in prison (remember there are all sorts of reasons to get picked on in prison - having a stammer, being physically small, having a disability, etc,etc)
m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYu9kIsIZ7k
(slightly ponderous interviewing though)

Love how they want to escape male violence in the men’s prison after sent down for classic male violence ! She is still male. Not even bothered to get a GRC.
Somehow I think that, if we do get wings for trans prisoners, the transmen wing will be a heck of a lot smaller.

Do you even need a specific trans prison. Surely all sorts of men are in prison, some more vulnerable than others, "presenting" in all sorts of different ways. Hudson is a man who has chosen to have body altering surgery, but they are still a man. It is impractical to have different prisons for each section of the diverse male population.

You can't act like a violent man and expect to be treated differently because you had breast implants and wear a dress.

What tara experienced was proof of why "she" has no business amongst women.

Best not commit a crime then if you need to stay out of prison for your own safety