Transgender woman sues over ordeal in male prison

As it's been mentioned, I am going the other way - I keep seeing women I think are trans. Well maybe they are. I mean maybe they are men. huge amounts of cosmetic surgery is confusing the matter.

as is wearing scarves to cover up the Adam's apple etc.

so I would look at any press photo of Tara and think that's a man because that's my automatic response to plastic surgery and heavy make up now.

Not in the cleverly posed press photos. In other photos its extremely obvious though

And the porny photos TM has posted themselves. And in the court sketch (easily findable under a Google image search)

You don't even need to see a full body photo, much less a penis, to know that Tara is male. A quick glance at the face is enough, as it is in the vast majority of cases.

Not in the cleverly posed press photos. In other photos its extremely obvious though.

also those TIMs would make that very argument and say "I want to be in a woman's prison because I identify as a woman".

honestly, how did we get here.

you know what else, imagine there was a separate wing and Tara goes in there.

the next person like Tara goes in there. Now they are both at risk from each other surely? So what change has actually occurred?

glittery do you believe then, that it is a strategic decision to have a trans wing, to quash all the bogus demands to be transferred to the estate of the opposite sex, rather than an ethical one, because TIMs are 'part-female' and 'wrongly placed' with other males?

I can see how it might make strategic sense but I fucking hate capitulating to the demands of violent, delusional narcissists, and I prioritise the protection of genuinely vulnerable prisoners far higher than any concession that narcissists will again push against and keep pushing until they get their way.
Prisons funding could be far better spent.

UpABitLate - I do see your point about that but women who commit crimes might expect to be locked up, but still don't expect to be locked up with men.

And women who commit crimes don't commit the same types of crimes as men, or on the same scale.

I don't have time to find more recent figures. These are from 2010/11 for men and women arrested for particular crimes and come from the MoJ.

Violence against the person: Men 315,508 - Women 61,802

Sexual offences: Men 31,937 - Women 947

Theft and Handling: Men 187,968 - Women 53,419

Fraud and Forgery: Men 22,164 - Women 7,353

Criminal Damage: Men 75,395 - Women 10,640

Drug Offences: Men 96,741 - Women 13,492

A person who commits a crime should expect to be put in prison. All of those people committing crimes should expect to be put in a prison that corresponds with their biological sex. Nobody should expect to be housed with members of the opposite biological sex.

Especially when the difference in types of crimes is so high when it comes to men and violence, including sexual violence, compared to violent women.

Women should think about the consequences of their own actions but those consequences shouldn't include being locked up with a violent person of the opposite sex.

The problem with don't commit a crime if you don't want to end up in an unpleasant prison situation aimed at TW who want in to womens prisons, is that the same could be said to the women.

I personally find the approach of well it's criminals so it doesn't matter very out of step with my beliefs. Violence is prison, whichever sort, and to whoever, is unacceptable and needs addressing. Issues like suicide especially with young offenders are urgent.

There are good reasons not to mix the sexes aside from the risk of violence.

The problem is that if you look at the bathroom debate, trans activists have consistently rejected the offer of a third space just for them. Though having both the offer and their angry rejection made very publicly could help open some people's eyes.

It's up to trans people to make reasonable demands that don't shit on women and girls and I will support them in that but I'm not their mum and I won't make this my problem to solve.

Yes to this. I don't have all the answers, no one does.

Yes, some TRAs will demand that they want what they want, which is in to women's spaces. (As noted, no trans men longing to get into male prisons). A third space meets the real need of safety and dignity and recognition of rights without allowing this as the solution which would expose it for what it is: validation and overcoming boundaries around women. A third space offers a choice that meets Equality Act reasonable adjustments: you're not ok with your sex allocated provision because of privacy, dignity, safety, ok you can opt into a specific provision if you'd prefer, without throwing women under the bus. With the prison service equally able to impose a transfer to trans specific provision for someone using trans ideology to make a nuisance of themselves and cause disruption in male provisions.

Yes, many men are vulnerable in mens prisons. That's not ok at all, no one should be abused or assaulted and it shouldn't be acceptable. But those men are not claiming to be women and demanding to use women's facilities. To provide a specific trans wing and immediate transfer there to a situation where everyone is trans and its everyone's daily normality I think may drop the large numbers of male prisoners identifying out of the blue: a normal prison wing removes special privilege and recognition from other non trans prisoners, different treatment, or the potential of getting into a women's prison. If that was the immediate option offered then many casual/piss taking 'transitions' may fade away, the perceived benefits would drop unless they were a genuinely trans and vulnerable person.

I do understand not wanting to agree to perceive privilege and to stay firm to the lines of a man is a man is a man even when there is a constructed vagina and breasts, and those needs should be catered for in the male estate - some men have breasts and wear dresses get over it. I do understand women are very angry about this and losing patience. I just think that providing that reasonable adjustment of a third space is a neutral step rather than a perceived aggressive one, it's one that is hard to argue with because it meets the explained needs on everyone's behalf (and leaves the only remaining argument of validation with no where to go) and discourages and deals with pisstakers using performed womanhood casually for personal gain which is a very major part of this.

You don't even need to see a full body photo, much less a penis, to know that Tara is male. A quick glance at the face is enough, as it is in the vast majority of cases.

Someone pointed out upthread that women's prisons just aren't equipped to house very violent prisoners. Build a special section for them in the men's prison if needed. Forcing women to share a cell with male prisoners is cruel and unusual punishment.

Are you more uncomfortable about this than by a young 'pretty boy' or someone with a mental illness or learning or physical disability? If so, why?

Hmm not really. Its something I have never thought too deeply into to be honest. Definitely a physically disabled man would be more at risk than an able bodied transitioned transwoman. Honestly, I don't think many male people are safe in prison. Female prisons from what I know are generally much better, but a friend of mine was stabbed whilst in a female prison, so I don't think they are as rosy as it seems.

And Tara Hudson couldn't even be bothered to sign the form for a GRC, considering that he met all the requirements (I believe, from the press reporting) currently in place

Fairly sure Tara is a raging AGP. So very possibly did not meet the 'diagnosis of gender dysphoria' part, unless 'she' lied convincingly.

This is why the self-ID proposals are a big deal - instead of those requirements you'd just have to sign a form

And Tara Hudson couldn't even be bothered to sign the form for a GRC, considering that he met all the requirements (I believe, from the press reporting) currently in place

An unpleasant individual all round. I'm liking the irony that Tara is okay with the term 'shemale'.

I have a lot of concerns around the current TRA agenda and disagree with lots of things they say. I have a friend who has a GRC and if she talks about it at all, she uses the term transsexual.

But she's like all the other ordinary TS folks and just wants to get on with life as usual as have the couple of TS colleagues I've worked with.

But accept the label 'shemale'? Fuck no, that's derogatory with bells on. As is 'cis' 'truscum' and all the other bollocks currently drifting around.

- nothing highlights biology quite like giving birth to a human!

Guardian I meant an abortion woukd be covered up. Baby, less so

YY Vicxy nobody in prison should be assaulted, intimidated or humiliated and this needs to be made a much higher priority. There have been some awful reports about conditions in prisons lately, the latest being Liverpool.

Solitary is not an option because it causes extreme mental distress and is a human rights violation.

It shouldn't be our problem though where everyone is housed in the prison system, or where everybody goes to the toilet, gets changed, sleeps, gets counselling, a bed for the night if homeless or fleeing from violence etc.

It's up to trans people to make reasonable demands that don't shit on women and girls and I will support them in that but I'm not their mum and I won't make this my problem to solve.

You think a baby being born in a men's prison won't get to the press?

I am uncomfortable with the idea though, of fully transitioned (full srs, not implants) being put in with the men mind (though don't agree with them being in the female estate either).

Are you more uncomfortable about this than by a young 'pretty boy' or someone with a mental illness or learning or physical disability? If so, why?
Is it the surgically constructed neovagina? The silicone implants? The mental illness?
There are so many different vulnerabilities men have, I don't see why been surgically made to look like a woman in some ways is the most important. One thing is for sure - they will never get pregnant as a result of rape. They won't have the indignity of 'slopping out' while menstruating...

Guardian, I see. Nah, they'll just keep it quiet unless the trans man speaks up.

Yes Vicxy, that's what I'm saying, the two go hand in hand, but I'm far more worried for the staff, they are terrifyingly outnumbered.

I have a female friend who took early retirement from the prison services thank goodness...she worked in a female prison but that won't last.

snowdrop I think a transman will go to a male prison, be raped and fall pregnant, then need to seek an abortion. Within the male prison, they don't have a facility for providing abortions, so they will need to seek outside help.
This will be leaked, lots of people will think - this is ridiculous - having to seek abortions as the result of rape in prison or if the transman doesn't want an abortion, actually conceiving innocent children by rape within prison walls. We need to re-think this situation. Biology trumps 'identity' when it comes to incarceration.

Well the less staff, the more unsafe prisons are, so they both tie in together really. Except with less staff, the staff are also quite unsafe, along with the prisoners.

Yes, in Taras case I would think many of the prisoners might be wary of 'her'. And 'she' is clearly not adverse to violence either.

Vicxy, I'm far more concerned about dwindling numbers of prison staff than I am about prisoner safety I'm afraid. I admit prisoner rights are not on my priority list but the numbers of staff being reduced won't help anyone's safety.

Anyway, surely some of the inmates are scared of Tara given the criminal record of violence, size, strength etc?