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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Go Fund Me addiction part 2

556 replies

SophoclesTheFox · 19/01/2018 19:44

The conversation is far from over on this...

link

OP posts:
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Ereshkigal · 24/01/2018 09:36

I have been informed they do not have to discuss the reasons why, their payment partner will no longer process my payments and the last line was "we can no longer provide you or your business with our service". I am stunned and sad as i have donated to so many causes through them.

That's fucking crazy.

CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger · 24/01/2018 09:14

WARNING PLEASE READ

Morning all.

I'm here with a warning I'm afraid. Can't reveal my sources of course but suffice to say they're pretty reliable.

There are Labour staffers working in membership that are involved in that secret Facebook group and some of them are after women on Mumsnet (I guess to dox/add to their hitlist).

I have no idea how far they've gone already - as we know the list is now not in the public domain so we can't check - but this individual thought it only fair to warn us.

(will post on other relevant threads)

MorrisZapp · 24/01/2018 08:42

I'm totally lost now.

We've won and lost this one about six times in the past week.

I'm out, I think. I'm worried I'm tweeting about events I'm ill informed about. When the dust settles and we have some kind of verifiable picture of labour's position on self ID I'll mouth off again if needed.

EamonnWright · 24/01/2018 01:15

Democracy is being usurped.

Datun · 24/01/2018 01:03

HaruNoSakura

Thank you for taking the time to write such a comprehensive post.

I'm struck by how complex it is. But not only that, also how much it relies on interpretation and human decision making.

It's all too easy to sit there on the sidelines thinking that can't be right, that sounds daft, without realising quite what goes into the entire process.

I too find it depressing that words can't have, let's call them, common sense meanings. And am now completely unsurprised that a law designed to ease the lives of those with gender dysphoria has actually allowed men to compete in women's sport, deny biology and let double rapists be transferred to the female estate.

I sincerely hope that when it is reformed/amended the rule that 'what isn't forbidden is allowed' gives pause for thought.

Thank you again. Your post is invaluable.

Chincywincy · 24/01/2018 00:43

I donated as Almighty God and Damian Bailey Peoples Momentum but they have not said that. I have been informed they do not have to discuss the reasons why, their payment partner will no longer process my payments and the last line was "we can no longer provide you or your business with our service". I am stunned and sad as i have donated to so many causes through them.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/01/2018 23:36

I'm trying to follow what is happening, but I'm terribly lost.

Has there been an official announcement or not? Or just twitter speculation?

ShoesHaveSouls · 23/01/2018 23:35

£19,105

Donations still coming in - Manchester Feminist Network gave £100.

Akire · 23/01/2018 23:05

How can they do that? Surely they accept the campaign at the start so even they wanted it only to be certain ones they agree with that should be at the start.

mimivanne · 23/01/2018 23:03

Chincywincy

What are you supposed to have done !

Chincywincy · 23/01/2018 22:56

I have had an email from GO Fund Me and have been told i can no longer make donations to any of their campaigns, the gits!

Debbie6666 · 23/01/2018 22:06

HaruNoSakura

Thanks for the informative posts. I do wonder though if the protected characteristics of the EA2010 act are not in competition but actually work together for trans people.

There is no dispute that AWS allow under exception to the sex characteristic the legal discrimination in favour of women. But rather than working against this the protected characteristic gender reassignment covers the self ID of trans people to be considered for all purposes where there is not a proportionate means to a legitimate aim, as their self ID sex, a matter reinforced by not applying discriminatory documentation practices on that protected groups. Ie if they ask for a driving licence as ID then it has to be for trans people also who can obtain such without a GRC.

In essence the exception clause of sex to allow aws is only in conflict with gender reassignment characteristic if the intent of the gender reassignment characteristic is rejected entirely or it can be shown its a proportionate means to a legitimate aim to deny trans women.

SophoclesTheFox · 23/01/2018 21:20

Really interesting posts, harunosakura. I've had a long day and I'm now struggling to absorb the detail, but will read again when I have more spare brain.

I'm a bit disheartened by the feeling that this is another route by which we might stand up for women that's being blocked off. I feel quite powerless a lot of the time, and this felt like doing something, not just shouting into the abyss while everything goes to shit around us.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 20:54

I think it all comes down to public perception. We need these issues to be openly debated in the media, like on the BBC etc. And freely debated. No agenda setting, no dismissive spin and propaganda.

HairyBallTheorem · 23/01/2018 20:51

Thank you Sakura for some of the most interesting and informative posts I've read in a long time. (If I'm getting the upshot of this right, JJ's case, if heard in court, will be interpreted so as to have as narrow a set of implications as possible - and also, might misfire on JJ).

JaimesGoldenHand · 23/01/2018 20:45

Or we could base it on y'know, objective, observable reality.

DonkeySkin · 23/01/2018 20:41

Thanks HaruNoSakura.

From your posts it sounds like feminists would be taking a risk in getting a court to adjudicate on this matter, as it could result in entrenching self-ID of legal sex rather than striking a blow against it.

And maybe the point that I keep returning to - that sex itself needs to be objectively defined, if it is to be fit for purpose as a legal category at all - would be better put to the public and ultimately the parliament than the courts.

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 20:40

Learning lots from you Haru. Thank you.

HaruNoSakura · 23/01/2018 20:27

DonkeySkin

You've walked right into the reason why it's considered a last resort to take things to court, especially when arguing a case that hasn't had similar cases like it before the Courts before. Essentially, as soon as a court makes a decision, at a very minimum that decision becomes part of the case law that then guides and informs all other similar cases that appear before the court. On the Civil side of the law you then have to take into account the type of Court making the decision. A case like this would be heard at the High Court, which means that not only would the decision create case law, it would also create judicial precedence, meaning that the judgement made would have to be made by all lower courts in similar cases and, with a few exceptions, would also be binding on the High Court itself.

But say somebody takes the risk and gets a court judgement that works for them. Well, enter the counterpart to the Judiciary - the Legislature (on a lower level the National Legislative Bodies, and then Westminster Parliament as a whole). It's another constitutional principle that Parliament is sovereign, meaning that, in theory, it can pass any legislation it likes and the Judiciary has no choice but to enforce it. (In practice the system is actually slightly more balanced than that, in part as being part of the European Court system but also, as this Government has found out, if the courts have ruled directly against the Government and the Government then gets Parliament to change the law solely to evade the court's judgement, then the Court will slap the Government down and call what they've done is illegal, (but that's really rare)). So, by and large, Parliament can pass any legislation it likes, and it has been known to get a statute passed in a day, so we're in situation where the laws that we live by, and the definitions that surround concepts within statute, can changed at any point for any reason. So, if the courts pass a judgement that a current or future Government decides doesn't suit its public policy then the Government can just bring in legislation changing the law and can do so surprisingly quickly.

And this is why trying to obtain a legal definition of concepts that we tend to take for granted (as opposed to seeking a clarification of an existing point of law) is generally considered futile. It doesn't matter what definition is made in statute because it's a definition written in sand and can just as easily be washed away with the next tide, and although the legal side of things thrives on exact definitions, the definitions are as narrowly tied to the case as it's possible to make because that way any statutory change to the definition has as much of a minimum impact as possible on the body of case law.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:19

Sorry to accidentally copy your expletive, quent Grin

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:18

Shock wtaf?!

Fuck me.

QuentinSummers · 23/01/2018 19:35

Fuck me. So not only women under the bus for TIMs but also BAME and disabled people Shock
Did not see that one coming.
Labour have jumped the shark.
This needs to go in AIBU

ATeardropExplodes · 23/01/2018 19:20

It does get better apparently

Members will be able to indicate if they self-identify as BAME or disabled so Labour can collect statistics that are more accurate

Lol. I can't stop laughing. What a bunch of fucking wankers.

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 19:18

Does the fact that it's theoretically possible to exclude trans identified males even with GRC from certain positions like rape counsellor have any weight? By which I mean that the law recognises that they are not exactly the same as women? Even with the legal gender change certain exemptions are possible.