More women looking at porn.

Dixie - yes 100% - and point proven with the recent posts.

No-one has said that women are incapable of molesting children.

HTH.

Ah well Dixie you are probably right looking at this turn...

This OP reminds me of one from a while back who was very invested in arguing that women, were they to have the power in society that men currently do, would sexually abuse children and be domestic abusers at the same rate men do/are now. A very odd agenda, really.

I actually find that post reassuring - you are right. Bonobos, to look at a different species are very different to cats -and much closer to us. (although the males still do act like dickheads - it just doesn't get them very far in bonobo culture and they back down).

It's not as bad as that GuardianLions! Humans are more successful than cats as a species because we're so much better at adapting our behaviour to the demands of a whole range of environments. We have basic drives like other mammals but much more flexibility in how they're expressed. We have a whole neocortex dedicated to this stuff even men do and a 25 year maturation period because our behaviour is so much less hardwired.

Also I think on the whole men are actively socialised to be rapey at the moment. I'm not sure we need to be training them out of it so much as to stop training them into it. Through porn, for example.

And I agree that socialisation is really important - but I think that certain biological factors are at play and males need more specific socialisation about not sticking their dicks where it is not wanted, for example.

Another thing I found really disappointing is about cats - I know this is a shit study - but I notice that the biggest male pushes the other cats out of the cat bowl to eat the majority of the food. Castrating him does lessen the self-centred prickish behaviour, but it is still there. So I wonder if selfishness and greed around food, territory, etc needs to be successfully socialised out of human males too. This is a vague idea and I am on the fence about it.

What I do believe is that socialisation is extremely powerful, and when done right - you can barely recognise the lizard-brained brutes we are underneath it all.

siggggh

If you really believe that the majority of women in porn do it because they enjoy it then I don’t really know what to say.

The fact that there might be some ‘ethical porn’ out there doesn’t really change anything because you don’t really know when you’re watching it who consented to what.
I’m sure there’s some porn that isn’t about violence, but it’s rare.

But, again, you are insisting that all porn is about violence, which is complete nonsense. There are many different 'stories' in porn and many different types of porn.
It's fine not to like sexually explicit entertainment (just as it's fine not to like sex/be asexual). But different people like different things.

And, like I said, the problem with Pornhub is that they blatantly rip off independent/ethical producers by stealing their work and profiting from it, which prevents the ethical producers (and their performers) from earning money.

I really don't see a difference between sex-as-performance and performing music. Both are things people may do for their own pleasure and may choose to do to entertain others.

Words can’t express how angry the idea that the reason some feminist are anti porn is because we are prudes makes me. It’s not the same as being a musician but we’re just too puritanical to be able to see that, I’m not whinging because I think penises are icky.
Porn is damaging for women (and men but let’s focus on the women here) because it normalises a kind of sex that is violent, centres the male pleasure, objectifies women. The message that ‘all men watch porn’ and it’s normal again places the idea that men’s orgasms are more important than women’s boundaries and bodies. When you watch porn you are contributing to an industry which uses and abuses young women.
I think that there ARE probably ethical porn makers but they are not in the majority by a long shot.

My friend is a sexual health worker and she says she sees girls as young as 14 who have injuries to their anuses due to copying things they think are normal sexual practises that is expected of them.

In an ideal world porn wouldn’t be a problem but I think in an ideal world where there was equality between the sexes then the porn wouldn’t look like it looks now.

"I mean, in some ways I do agree with you. Honestly. A more feminised society would be more civilised. No two ways about that.

What you've got to be wary of is this idea that if you give women power then they'll just carry on being all caring and good just as they were when they were at home looking after kids and doing embroidery. Part of the reason why women are so much nicer is that they DON'T have the same power and agency as men. "

You are still attached to this very binary view of masculine /feminine.

Who thinks women are "all caring and good"? No-one other than you, I think? The masculine would then be "uncaring and bad" which clearly is not the case for all men!

I would also question whether women are "so much nicer than men" that feels like an odd thing to say.

You need to try to stop seeing masculine and feminine as real actual things, and accept that people are people, and are all different, irrespective of whether they are male or female. That human beings are capable of a wide range of behaviours and attitudes both personally and when constrained by society whether through laws or convention. Then you need to think, well we build a society / world together, what do we want that to look like?

When I said, "You don't think that any members of the human race are capable of kindness without socialisation?"

I didn't mean with no socialisation at all - like babies who are isolated from all human contact

I meant with no specific effort to socialise kindness. Although with a social creature, I think most people are exposed to various ways of behaviour.

I can see that didn't come across quite right.

It was in response to the idea that girls are socialised to be kind, while boys are not. At a group level. However it's clear that there are lots of kind boys and men around. And lots of unkind girls and women! We are not blank slates - and socialisation is imperfect. People fight against socialisation that goes against their nature, and are very unhappy if they have to adhere to it.

Paid to have sex is different to being paid to to perform art.
As discussed upthread.

Why is it unethical to be paid for performing? We don't expect musicians, dancers, artists etc to work for free even though they enjoy their work and in many cases do their stuff to amuse themselves as well as doing it for an audience. (Oh wait. Porn is 'different' because, waa, penis, waa, sex...)
(Actually, these days, there IS a problem with people expecting art/music/writing/performance to be available for no money. It's still unethical...)

Someone being a goady fucker, so far as I've read!

And each time a goalpost is reached, it is then moved! Howls of laughter! Gods, this is Sooooo familiar, it makes me hoot with laughter!

Marquis I am actually with you about socialisation. I think it is very hard to put in at a later stage what was missing at the appropriate developmental stage - it is like permanent brain damage.

I know someone from a wealthy family, who's little brother was adopted from an orphanage, I won't go into to much detail about it, but the boy was left for a few days as a tiny baby and found in an abandoned flat, taken to an orphanage. The family are really lovely, extremely loving, kind people, but the boy just doesn't 'get' empathy. They can't teach him right from wrong because he doesn't get some basic human ideas like 'it is not good to feel bad', 'it is not good for others to feel bad' - they have nothing to build on and it is very distressing that the child seems so empty and there is nothing they can do to really humanise his feelings.

He is still a kid, but I wonder whether empathy will kick in, or if he will always be missing this ability to connect with others.

Although some good reasons were given upthread for having reservations even then.

People who perform to entertain others deserve payment

I think the argument was that porn was only ethical when made by people who were performing to entertain themselves.

Ah, stupid argument number 7 or so - porn is only OK when the people who make it don't get paid for it. This is utterly, utterly wrong. People who perform to entertain others deserve payment - you wouldn't say that it's unethical to want paying if you make music which others enjoy, would you?
(Yeah, there are now going to be about 100 posts going 'but porn is different because PENIS waa waaa waaaaaa)

The single biggest reason to criticise Pornhub is their blatant copyright theft. The people who make ethical porn (ie with well-treated, well-paid performers) are forever getting their stuff stolen by Pornhub, who then profit from it without giving a penny to the producers/performers (in those cases when performers get royalties as well as a flat fee).