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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cathy Newman and Jordan Petersen on C4 News

510 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 16/01/2018 20:08

Just on. He was saying that people are different due to ' agreeableness, women being more likely to be so; men less so, hence the gender gap

It's the first time I have ever seen Cathy Newman angry. And he was spluttering a bit, first time for him too, for me, I think.

Watch it on + 1

I agree with some of Petersen's views but he didn't come off at all well here

OP posts:
LeeMoore · 23/01/2018 02:32

"In biological terms, men don't choose - they compete to get chosen"

Yes, but no. In some species, females don't get a choice. The male competition plays out and the females are mere booty, so to speak. In other species males compete for mating opportunities, and females choose who they are going to grant their favour to. But in some species there is mutual choice - ie as well as the usual business of females choosing males, there's also males choosing females.

The reason why it's usually females choosing males is that the females are the scarce resource and the males are the plentiful resource - ie a hundred males and a hundred females aren't going to produce more offspring than ten males and and hundred females. So you only get into a males choosing females situation when the males are themselves a scarce resource. And this applies where males are required to put in some resources (ie labour) to keep the offspring alive and kicking. So think pair bonding, eg in birds.

Humans are pair bonders because on average, before the welfare state, a woman couldn't keep her babies alive on her own. This is because of the helplessness of human infants and the length of time they remain unable to fend for themselves - and the consequent burden on the mother's ability to keep herself alive. A woman needed help. So if a man has to put in resources, he's going to choose which woman (of those available) is the best investment.

But even with pair bonding, there's a pay off for cheating. If you are number 14 male bird and you've bonded with no.14 female bird, then it's in your interests to sort out Mrs 17, 25 and 46 down the wood when their husbands are away. Because if you do get Mrs 25 up the spout, you're not going to have to provide any resources. You'd like to canoodle with Mrs 3, but she's not going to give you the time of day, since she's got Mr 3. But watch out, while you're chasing after Mrs 17, 25 and 46, male birds 1-13 are after your missus. You're safe from male birds 15-100, because your missus won't fancy them.

And so we get to all the fun stuff which drives literature film and art - the pursuit of long term mates; and the simultaneous pursuit of something on the side. Where something on the side means different things to men and women. For women it's something better than I've already got. For men it's just "more beans please, miss !"

Humans are clever, complex pair bonders and our behaviour is certainly not deterministic. We have enormous flexibility. But we don't have infinite flexibility. We all have our animal brains, which have been tuned by evolution. So we have instincts to behave in particular ways. We have instincts that exist as potential and which are tuned by social and environmental factors when we arrive and develop in the world. And we have brains that can think rationally (OK reasonably rationally.) But we should not assume that thinking rationally will always and easily trump instincts. It will do so sometimes and with effort.

I'll try a variant of a JP trick on you all. I imagine that pretty much every one participating in this thread thinks him/herself pretty well educated, pretty intelligent and pretty rational. Now go off to a quiet room and close your eyes. See if you can think of ten stupid, irrational things you've done in the last month. (And yes, buying those cookies when you're on a diet definitely counts.) If you have to stay in the room for more than fifteen minutes, because you can't get up to ten - you're lying to yourself.

LeeMoore · 23/01/2018 01:45

The clownfish example is great fun :

www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/08/clownfish-are-all-born-male-a-dominant-male-will-turn-female-when-the-current-female-of-the-group-dies/

The male dominance hierarchy doesn't exist to oppress females, because there aren't any females to oppress. The top (female) clownfish is actually the top male, who has flipped to female once he's reached the top of the pile. The prize for getting to the top of the male dominance hierarchy is that absolutely all of the baby clownfish that group produces are your babies. Cos you're the only girl in town. And the prize for getting to second spot is that virtually all the babies are yours. Until you inherit top slot and then all of them are yours, when you become female.

This is the male dominance hierarchy on steroids. When you win you don't get the pick of the girls, you become the ONLY girl yourself !

Shwangalangadingdong · 23/01/2018 01:28

Toad gonna practise that JP assertive and tell you to fuck off or stay on topic. So either engage or fuck off

Toadinthehole · 23/01/2018 01:16

Lobsters or people?

Shwangalangadingdong · 23/01/2018 01:00

Does anyone actually think this about toilets?

Toadinthehole · 23/01/2018 00:53

By the way, has anyone else seen the "Men", "Women" and "Lobsters" signs at Boston Airport in the US? I saw them in the early 90s in the domestic terminal.

The first two looked like doors into toilets. No idea what was behind the third.

Have rtft btw. It's fascinating; thanks to you all.

Toadinthehole · 23/01/2018 00:52

By the way, has anyone else seen the "Men", "Women" and "Lobsters" signs at Boston Airport in the US? I saw them in the early 90s in the domestic terminal.

The first two looked like doors into toilets. No idea what was behind the third.

Have rtft btw. It's fascinating; thanks to you all.

Shwangalangadingdong · 23/01/2018 00:21

I know what you mean by I just still need to work out whether they are true, legitimate and helpful and watching him breaking down into tears a few times in online stuff made me uncomfortable - is he genuine or manipulative? Are his emotional 'Oprah' moments for real?

That has nothing to do with my decision though. It has just focused what I've been thinking about for a while - mostly to do with my family / friends more than someone online. But it has really helped me focus, and I have tidied my room

ThisIsAStory · 22/01/2018 23:15

I think that is an important thought Shwang.

And that sense that we are taking so much for granted in our western liberal democracies and actually have no idea how quickly it could all be eroded, withdrawn or overtaken. It does make sense of the world in some ways that the dominant narrative from our politicians at the moment just doesn't, and sounds often frankly deluded. I am absolutely seeing why his ideas are appealing. I just still need to work out whether they are true, legitimate and helpful.

Shwangalangadingdong · 22/01/2018 22:35

I had come to think the middle ground in politics was an easy position, but I'm now beginning to see what a difficult and precariously balanced place it was.

I think that's why it's dangerous in a way and why I find him so interesting. There is a void there, and that is a bit scary. Not for men or women, but for people.

I decided today that if I had to chose between free speech and feminism I would chose free speech, as without it feminism couldn't exist.

Tbh that's the deepest thought I've had for a while. I'm not an academic

Shwangalangadingdong · 22/01/2018 22:14

I would really like to ask him what he thinks about the demographics of people at his talks and online followers (mostly male) and his students (mostly female).

Is there a biological theory that explains that?

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 22:11

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YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 22:04

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Shwangalangadingdong · 22/01/2018 22:02

but instead to focus on your own individual determination and the meaning in your life, now?

Yippee I was just about to post something along those lines as I just watched this (yes another JP youtube clip) which says just that. He doesn't say men / women in that clip he's just talking about people.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 21:58

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/01/2018 21:53

Im not rejecting 'any evolutionary influence' on human behaviour.

Our immense capacity for adaptability is evolutionarily determined for heavens sake.

I'm rejecting the explanations provided by an uncritical discipline of evolutionary psychology under patriarchy.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 21:49

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/01/2018 21:47

Yes I'm talking specifically about human social organisation, not evolutionary biology more generally.

Dissimilitude · 22/01/2018 21:40

Though to come back on Tallulah, I also think that completely discounting it is wishful thinking.

Dissimilitude · 22/01/2018 21:38

Of course, women must also compete, and high status males are probably top of the overall tree in terms of life options! But most men are not high status.

Intellect and creativity are by-products of our high degree of general intelligence, a highly useful survival trait for both sexes!

Historically, male reproductive variance was much higher than females (you have many more female ancestors than male). Humans are pretty typical of a lot of mammal species in that biologists basically assume that, for each generation, all capable females will reproduce. The same does not hold for males - or at least, it certainly did not in prehistory.

In male life, the rewards accrue disproportionately to the top.

To be clear, I don't in any way think this stuff is deterministic for us. Clearly there's a metric ton of culture and social structure embedded on top of these biological foundations. I simply find it interesting, and think it has some small relevance.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/01/2018 21:37

Evolutionary biology is a just-so story.

It upholds existing power structures by positing immutable biological explanations for 'how things are now'.

It's based on cherry-picking a few concordant examples from a vast and almost infinitely diverse animal kingdom. You could 'prove' absolutely anything about humans by doing that. It only sounds even slightly convincing because it's consistent with our socially constructed beliefs about ourselves (see first point)

Finally, it ignores the adaptability of the human race, which, as I had occasion to remark on another thread earlier, is underpinned by a large neocortex and a 25-year maturation period which we uniquely require because our behaviours are flexibly determined by our environment and not not hardwired like those of most animals including lobsters.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 21:29

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YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 21:26

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/01/2018 21:19

Sorry what? I haven't rtft as it looked a bit turgid but are we genuinely being told that our destinies are determined by the mating behaviour of lobsters?

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 22/01/2018 21:16

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