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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cathy Newman and Jordan Petersen on C4 News

510 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 16/01/2018 20:08

Just on. He was saying that people are different due to ' agreeableness, women being more likely to be so; men less so, hence the gender gap

It's the first time I have ever seen Cathy Newman angry. And he was spluttering a bit, first time for him too, for me, I think.

Watch it on + 1

I agree with some of Petersen's views but he didn't come off at all well here

OP posts:
makeourfuture · 23/01/2018 14:36

"Women's studies, and all the ethnic studies and racial studies groups, man, those things have to go and the faster they go the better," he said. "It would have been better if they had never been part of the university to begin with as far as I can tell."

"Sociology, that's corrupt. Anthropology, that's corrupt. English literature, that's corrupt. Maybe the worse offenders are the faculties of education."

  • Peterson
SolidarityGdansk · 23/01/2018 14:30

Makeourfortune

Care to explain what you think that agenda is? Seriously asking so I can understand your viewpoint better.

makeourfuture · 23/01/2018 14:28

Also too quick to throw up the stock phrase of “ you can’t generalise/ stereotype ‘ etc. Actually, why not? Certain cultures or groups do have tendencies to have certain characteristics.

You guys are really working this snowflake angle hard.

To say that this interview was between a nice honest science-based guy and an attack dog feminist is ridiculous.

This guy has an agenda.

SolidarityGdansk · 23/01/2018 14:25

NickSherrat

I work for a multi-national company and am often working in cross-cultural teams.

We have plenty of training to show the cultural differences in communication styles so that we can better understand each other and improve our working relationships.

A typical example is the different styles of an American vs a Japanese person and what is considered rude etc.

From that we can and do male generalisations about Americans being blunt and too the point and Japanese being more subtle

We can joke between ourselves of German colleagues being organised and precise. Note our German-colleagues may initiate this humour when asking for a deeper lower level report to be produced. So it’s not humour at their expense. They are using a stereotype about Germans to ask for what they want. And using humour to ask someone else to do extra work for them.

NickSharratsFeltTip · 23/01/2018 13:25

"Certain cultures or groups do have tendencies to have certain characteristics."

Examples please - because I am not so sure about that.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 23/01/2018 13:23

I think the interview exemplifies the frustration that many people have with broadcast media these days where any notions of nuance, context or understanding , values that make a debate interesting have been exchanged for hectoring bullying, a quest for a sound bite and ‘winning’. Newman is not the only one guilty of this approach, it’s been seeping into newsrooms for years. Fortunately long format interviews expose that abrasive method as being of limited value when up against an articulate, calm individual who has total faith in their understanding of the of subject to hand. Newman came on to do a hatchet job and was found wanting. After her umpteenth ‘so what you are saying’ I actually started to feel sorry for her, she had lost all control.

TheMathsTrainee · 23/01/2018 13:13

There’s too much lazy thinking in public discourse.

To quick to call transphobic/ bigot/racist etc.

Also too quick to throw up the stock phrase of “ you can’t generalise/ stereotype ‘ etc. Actually, why not? Certain cultures or groups do have tendencies to have certain characteristics.

CritEqual · 23/01/2018 12:50

I do not think her credibility is shot at all. Pretty quickly C4 and The Guardian shifted gears away from the interview itself and onto the abuse she got on Twitter. The story will become about what happened on social media and not on the content of the interview itself.

What dominates public discourse too much is binary thinking. Either something is X or it is Y, it can never be elements of both X and Y with perhaps elements of Z. Furthermore one of the Xs or Ys is usually some group of people whose fault it can be.

It can be immigrants for brexiters/trump supporters, feminists for trans activists/mras, straight white men for feminists/sjws. In short we all do it and it's all a bit one note. Genuine question why is it when class analysis comes up the point seems to always be how any individual given group is being the villains of the piece and not what are the strengths of this group and what can we learn from them?

Dissimilitude · 23/01/2018 12:15

I would very much like her to speak to him again, as he suggests, but in a format where they explore, together, a number of these topics. Would be genuinely interested in seeing Peterson respond to an intellectually coherent challenge from her, and has he states in that second interview posted above, that wasn't a "victory" - it was an advertisement of how debased and polarized our discourse has become, which is a genuine tragedy.

We cannot seem to disagree with any empathy or curiosity - it's just draw lines in the sand, pick a side and start battling.

In that spirit, I don't regard her as a failure at all; I would just like to see some introspection and perhaps re-evaluation. Curiosity. Empathy. A bit less Paxman and a bit more Loius Theroux. We'd all benefit.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 12:12

Well thats fine flower

And i do appreciate your point and opinion

But i have seen dreadful interviews by all sorts of people and i dont think people should be judged on one interview

I have seen her before but not paid much attention, if she continued in this vein then yeah i would agree with you

Flowerpot1234 · 23/01/2018 12:06

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

I can see why you say that. But her thought processes, ability to think rationally, to listen, to assimilate what is being said and retort with intelligence and without a loading of pre-conception and a transparent desire for the interviewee to represent a stance which he didn't, are here shown to be so totally lacking, that her position is surely untenable now.

This is not the odd mistake or mis-spoken word in an interview. This was a car crash that arose out of the innate failings in her interviewing skill-set. There have been signs of this before, I am not been impressed, but after the Peterson interview, I doubt I would ever be able to take her, or what she is asking and saying, seriously again.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 11:51

As a serious interviewer, surely Cathy Newman's entire credibility is gone now?

I would be hesitant to say this on the basis of one interview

Krishnan Guru-Murthy did a dreadful interview a fe months ago and I certainly didnt think 'well bang goes his credibility'

Flowerpot1234 · 23/01/2018 11:24

Just viewed the interview above where he analyses Newman's behaviour. Again, he is spot on in his analysis.

I am so disappointed in Newman, and so deeply embarrassed that she flew a weird offence-driven feminist flag throughout this interview supposedly representing me, and I am ashamed to be associated with her as a feminist woman.

As a serious interviewer, surely Cathy Newman's entire credibility is gone now?

NotDavidTennant · 23/01/2018 11:22

The discussion of male dominance hierarchies here made me think of this thread: Shorter men

Radicalrooster · 23/01/2018 10:37

ETA supportive of his position, not supportive of point B, obv.

Why on earth doesn't this forum have an edit function?

Radicalrooster · 23/01/2018 10:35

Peterson's own thoughts on the Ch4 affair, and its fallout (as well as a series of other things).

As the above posts imply, Peterson's not overly bothered whether what you think he says is correct or not. But he is very bothered when a) you try to prevent him from saying it or b) purposely misrepresent and distort his arguments for the benefit of your own political/cultural agenda. Which I suspect is a position we should all be supportive of.

Stopmakingsense · 23/01/2018 10:29

Melanie Philips in The Times today on the interview:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/defenders-of-free-speech-have-a-new-prophet-7kk9mnvnl?shareToken=55a5491b83e04fe54133e13e68923661

"He has become a kind of secular prophet who, in an era of lobotomised conformism, thinks out of the box"

Dissimilitude · 23/01/2018 09:39

In answer to some earlier point about why JP may not have explored certain aspects of these arguments, I think his position is better understood as "it's nowhere near as simple as the absolutists claim, and lots of what they claim is demonstrably and empirically false".

I don't think he's ever really taken on the question of what is the exact nature of the pay gap. What he's done is refute and deny the absolutist version of the story - that's it's pure discrimination, pure patriarchy. He's not really making strong claims about what IS - he's denying what he sees as the obviously false claims of others.

As others have said, he's basically a classic liberal (in the British sense of the word, not the American), with a big beef against post-modernism and Marxism.

makeourfuture · 23/01/2018 08:01

Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus repackaged.

Will this guy's next work be on how French women stay thin?

LeeMoore · 23/01/2018 07:20

No, I'm currently standing on my head and clinging to the bottom of the world. Hence my ability to sneak in 214 consecutive posts while nobody else gets a look in.

I don't know what I think about his thoughts about the dark side. He's clearly influenced by Nietzsche and Jung.

My primary interest in him is that he's, er, interesting and that he tells me a lot of things I don't know, and offers a lot of thoughts that haven't occurred to me before.

I confess I'm uncomfortable that some of his fans seem keen to promote him from "very interesting teacher and good role model" to "mini-Messiah." I understand that some people want a hero to follow, but in a sense those treating him as a mini-Messiah have missed the main point of his advice. Which is that you have to be your own rock, not a worshiper of idols. And if you feel more like putty than rock, it's probably time to get started sorting yourself out. And if you already feel like rock, you're probably due for a spot of nemesis.

ThisIsAStory · 23/01/2018 06:58

Lee are you in the UK? If so that is not much sleeping!

Thank you. Will cogitate. But my initial impression is that if he's right, our capacity for darkness is both deeper and more instinctive than any of us like to admit.

Which is never going to go down well with a world view convinced of the fundamental goodness of human beings. That's one of the realities I think he is interesting in explaining. Ironically confirmed when Twitter behaviour manifests in all its horror.

I haven't got to any of those lectures yet though to see what he has to offer by way of hope....

LeeMoore · 23/01/2018 06:45

Shwangalangadingdong : “watching him breaking down into tears a few times in online stuff made me uncomfortable - is he genuine or manipulative? ”

This (pro-Peterson) reviewer

neoneocon.com/2018/01/20/all-hail-jordan-peterson-not-just-a-debater/

certainly thinks he’s manipulative, though she doesn’t use that word, and she also thinks he’s genuine :

“He can get firm, assertive, and/or almost angry, but only when he decides for strategic reasons to display those particular emotions. And yet he also seems—and I believe actually is—sincere even in anger.”

So she thinks his emotions are genuine but that he’s learned to display them or not according to whether it suits him or not. You could certainly call that manipulative. Or you could call it persuasive.

It’s one of those English irregular verbs :

I persuade
You argue
He manipulates

For my money, I think he's a passionate man, who buttons it most of the time. But in his early pronoun interviews, with the more normal structure of the non PC person being in a 3-1 or 4-1 minority you could see that he could not conceal his irritation even when it didn't suit him. The opposition sometimes succeeded in goading him into responding more snappily than was required. He's clearly got defter at the tactics with practice. His (I think genuine) amusement in the CN interview was much more effective than irritation. But it's clear from his stuff that he's passionate about what he believes, so I'm pretty sure he's controlling the display of his emotions carefully. Perhaps as the reviewer says, you need to learn a lot of self control as a clinical psychologist.

Ruthlessrooster · 23/01/2018 06:13

Good post

LeeMoore · 23/01/2018 03:41

Yippee : "And then men worked hard to try to protect the advantages they had provided themselves."

I think life is more complicated than that. It's true that male dominated societies have always been interested in controlling female mating, if they can. But they have been interested in controlling male mating too. Because the real war is between everyone and everyone as to whose descendants are going to make it into the next round of the game. Traditional male dominated societies do not exist to allow all men to oppress all women. They exist to allow powerful men to dominate everyone else, men and women. And the only reason it's powerful men, rather than a powerful man, is that it's really difficult for one man to acquire absolute power. Hence you have to make alliances.

Note that the Duchess of Wherever was always just as keen as her Duke, that their daughter should not mate with the under gardener. The Duchess has exactly the same interest as the Duke in channelling her daughter's reproductive energies towards high status males. And exactly the same interest as the Duke in seeing that her son gets to sow some wild oats.

The point of social structure is that I should be in charge and that everyone should do what I say. Everyone doesn't mean women. It means everyone. I am forced to negotiate down from there to whatever is practical.

"Remember it's only 100 years since men decided to grant some women the vote"

And remember that in the previous 100 years, the small group of men who held power were forced bit by bit and through gritted teeth to hand out votes to other men. It's not a men oppress women thing. It's a those with power oppress those who aren't for as long as they can get away with it. (Mediated to some extent by ethical considerations. So for the most part the powerful men who reluctantly ceded votes to wider classes of voters did not do so because they were defeated in a contest of violence, but because enough of their group weakened and succumbed to argument.)

Obviously the reason for the political elite being male is violence. Women can't compete in a hierarchy determined by violence. Of course the male hierarchy hasn't been about pure power for eons - the brains to plan and organise and the talent for persuasion have allowed clever persuaders and planners to dominate big thugs. But a clever persuader without the practical capacity for violence is impotent. And that's what a clever woman would be in the male hierarchy until very recently. So it's no surprise that monarchies, oligarchies and elites have been very male up till recently. But they're not about doing women down. They're about doing down everybody who isn't in the ruling club.

I am aware of occasional exceptions to the rule of a male elite - eg Greek societies worshipping Mother Nature. But there are good reasons for why such societies might have appealed to our curious species. The mystery of where babies come from is a deep one, and those who control that mystery must be in tune with the Gods. But since those societies ultimately depended for their survival on male military violence, it's not surprising that matriarchies were subsumed by patriarchies.

LeeMoore · 23/01/2018 02:46

AssassinatedB : "We just need to learn not to prefer men that are currently considered "high status", is that right? What sort of alternate hierarchies ought women to consider?"

The problem with any cartel is keeping everyone in line. You are in competition with Ms X for the affection of Mr G. There's no reason to believe that she's going to co-operate with you to reduce male oppression, if that gets in the way of her winning the contest for Mr G. Even if she's says she's going to co-operate. She may care more about getting Mr G than she does about male oppression.

Of course you may not care about Mr G. Indeed you may care so much about defeating male oppression that you don't want to mate until male domination has been vanquished. If so, the next generation will be composed of the descendants of Mr G and Ms X, not you. But perhaps their children will agree with you, and carry on the fight.

Humans are sneaky critturs. And therefore interesting.