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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cathy Newman and Jordan Petersen on C4 News

510 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 16/01/2018 20:08

Just on. He was saying that people are different due to ' agreeableness, women being more likely to be so; men less so, hence the gender gap

It's the first time I have ever seen Cathy Newman angry. And he was spluttering a bit, first time for him too, for me, I think.

Watch it on + 1

I agree with some of Petersen's views but he didn't come off at all well here

OP posts:
Lucydogz · 19/01/2018 16:14

lee thank you for taking the time to answer so cogently. Carefully thought out intelligent posts are great.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 16:08

No. Repeating a simple phrase many times doesn't make it a radical feminist "sword". Why do you think it's a radical feminist "sword" to repeatedly suggest something is sexist? What about that is radical/feminist?

LeeMoore · 19/01/2018 16:04

AssassinatedB : Just stating that something is sexist is not a "specifically radical feminist sword".

Sure. But doing so a couple of dozen times, in response to somethings that aren't sexist, and not offering anything else, well, if it looks like a specifically radical feminist sword, walks like a specifically radical feminist sword and quacks like a specifically radical feminist sword, then you've got to at least consider the possibility that it's a specifically radical feminist sword.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 15:45

Just stating that something is sexist is not a "specifically radical feminist sword".

ginandbearit · 19/01/2018 15:41

I bet Krishnan Guru - Murthy would have been even worse and I'd love to see him taken apart ... Such a pompous arse

LeeMoore · 19/01/2018 15:37

Doobigetta : "Double standards in action. Man fucks up debate and looks silly on tv- individual man is considered an idiot. Woman fucks up debate and looks silly on tv- feminism is a deluded concept because women just can't hack it in the big leagues."

Up to a point, Lord Copper. Yes there's some silly sexist gloating. But your comparison overlooks the detail that the defeated female contestant was taking a specifically radical feminist sword to the battle. Almost all her questions were from a "surely is this sexist" point of view. When she lost - was the problem just her, or might it also have been her sword ?

If a male interviewer is ripped to shreds as he repeats prepackaged talking points about, say, the horrors of the NHS is it not possible that the gloating would encompass not merely his personal failure, but the weakness of his ideas about health care ?

LeeMoore · 19/01/2018 15:26

I think the Paxman comparison is slightly off on two counts.

First if Paxman had been politely and good humouredly dismantled, there would be lots of people happy to celebrate the fact. It's just that the epithets would be different. There's be less "bitch" and more "jerk", "smug", "come-uppance" and so on. So the content of the gloating would have been different, but the fact of it, no.

Second I think Paxman would have been in similar difficulties to Newman if he had tried the same approach. Paxman interviewed politicians on subjects he knew a lot about - as much as the people he was interviewing. And quite often, the people he was interviewing were keen to avoid giving straight answers - and Paxman knew which questions were going to be uncomfortable for them. But Peterson was a different sort of interviewee. He was being interviewed on subjects that he knows far more about than does Newman (or Paxman) and he's not trying to conceal any of his views. He publishes his lectures on You Tube. Given those structural disadvantages the traditional Paxman "is there any reason why you should not be hung, drawn and quartered you miserable worm" interview approach would have crashed and burned within a sentence.

Newman's problem was not that she's stupid, or even that she wanted to make political points. It's that her strategy for the interview was misconceived. A more open and interested approach would have been better. As if she was interviewing someone who had some new theory about diabetes. She was only going to make a conflict approach work if she had got Peterson to lose his temper. Now there there might be a gender issue. Peterson found her approach uncomfortable, but also mildly amusing. He never looked close to losing his temper. Its conceivable that if it had been a man (say Paxman) across the table, he might have been more likely to lose his temper and less likely to find it amusing. Because it would have been an actual dominance dispute.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 15:16

You don't know what the theory is about, you object to something that isn't what anyone is suggesting.

pisacake · 19/01/2018 14:56

A Petersen-Paxman interview would not have been gendered, because it's basically two argumentative men and that's the default in society. But, as he said, she is disagreeable relative to the 'default female stereotype' and that makes her a target. And she gets attacked for spluttering here: twitter.com/Some_BlackGuy/status/953523706373931009

What she said was obviously wrong, but whereas Paxman would just repeat himself manfully (literally because he had nothing else to say), and get credit for it, as with Michael Howard, she is deemed vanquished by her male foe because she shows weakness (feminine). If she goes 'male' she gets the 'bitch' comments, and if she's 'female', then she gets the 'inferior' comments.

Hence John Humpries getting paid double, he doesn't have to defy multiple gendered stereotypes to do his job.

EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 14:53

Well I don't know what to say other than I disagree with the theory. I find it obviously ridiculous.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 14:52

The word has a meaning. So does the concept of male privilege in feminist theory. It doesn't mean that all men have privilege over all women in all aspects of their lives at all times.

pisacake · 19/01/2018 14:47

I thought it was quite interesting.

A few things: some of his supporters have said 'it was great because normally he just get people nodding enthusiastically the whole time, but here more of him came across'

The entire interaction was unquestionably gendered: she has got thousands of 'bitch' type comments, because she is a woman, while he for his part has given some nudge-nudge-wink-wink allusions to the gender dynamic:

twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/953918614947729409
twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/953385332367486976

His basic point was 'women choose to go into childcare, men choose to do science, and this is because of innate differences, and science jobs obviously pay better'. The argument Newman was making was along the lines of 'childcare should pay as well as science does', which is obviously silly.

The other thing he was saying was 'men will demand more money, women won't', to which her reply was 'well companies should just pay women more without them asking'. You pay the bloke more because he's demanding it and says he has a new job somewhere else and it'll cost you £50k to replace him. He was saying 'but I trained some rich women how to overcome this', in a manner that suggested he's a fighter for women's rights, but wasn't really anything of the kind.

Overall I felt that the Newman/Petersen dynamic and public response to it was the most telling thing. She had all kinds of female adjectives applied to her ('shrill', 'hectoring', 'bitch'), whereas even deliberately constructed insults of men are not entirely negative 'manspreading' suggest power, dominant behaviour, which is what business/competition is about, 'mansplaining' is a man showing off his knowledge, and so on.

Most women in senior positions will get these kinds of adjectives applied to them, their behaviour is seen as aberrant, and surveys show women prefer male bosses. As he said, consumer decisions and so on are made by women, so in theory this could be changed, but in practice relatively few women choose feminist businesses.

EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 14:38

Because you don't like or understand the definition doesn't mean it's nonsense

The word privelage has a meaning. A definition.

LeeMoore · 19/01/2018 14:36

AssassinatedB : "You don't think that there should or could be a way to reduce the impact of maternity on women at work?"

Well, so long as we don't get it muddled up with the original subject which was the gender pay gap and how much of it has to do with discrimination...

...I'm mostly a free market sort of person, and so I think that employers will usually have an interest in accommodating their valuable female employees when it comes to maternity and childcare. But the extent to which such accommodation is valuable will depend on the value of the female employee to the employer. So if you're a top notch banker or lawyer, or business manager, your employer will do more or less anything to accommodate you because you're worth a lot of money to them. (I'll mention though that my own experience in this area is slightly discouraging. For my sins I used to work in a place where we had lots of very high powered high quality female employees, and we bent over backwards organisationally and financially to accommodate maternity and child care. But more than 75% of the time, once the baby popped out, the mother did not want to come back to work, either at all, or as a full time employee. And these were women who loved their jobs and were absolutely convinced, pre baby, that they were definitely coming back to work. Actual babies can change your perspective.) Whereas if you're a cashier in the supermarket you're not worth very much. You're easy to replace cheaply. And then depending on your business, it may be very easy or very difficult to accommodate female employees and their maternity plans. So holding a job open for a female employee is usually very easy for a large employer (unless she has a critical specialist job where you need to hire a replacement.) But holding jobs open in small companies can be really difficult. You just don't have the flexibility. You've got nine employees, five of them women, two get pregnant - what do you do ? If you hire two replacements when the first two get back you've got 20% excess staff. If you don't hire replacements your other workers have got 20% extra work to do. So a market solution is to let different employers make whatever arrangements fit their business.

The consequences would likely be greater job differentiation. Women who wanted children would gravitate to employers who offered good maternity arrangements and away from employers who didn't. I recognise however that such a laissez faire approach would never be allowed in the real political world.

"And what of the fact that more women do childcare? Is that just a simple choice which men and women make equally? So any disparity is down to more women simply wanting to do childcare than men?"

Loads of different reasons, some of which is free choice, some of which is pretty much dictated by nature, and some of which is influenced by female mate choice. So if you have a baby without having a regular partner, then you're kinda left holding the baby. And if you make a "typical" choice of a man of roughly your educational level and job prospects, but who is 5 years older than you (and therefore 5 years higher up the ladder) on average it's going to cost your family less if your career comes second to his.

For what it's worth there are studies showing that in families where Mum has the good job, and Dad is the stay at home househusband, Mum still finishes up spending more hours on childcare than Dad ! (On average.) So if you want to tilt at the windmill of unequal child care, good luck.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 14:35

Because you don't like or understand the definition doesn't mean it's nonsense.

EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 14:34

Ok so there's 2 feminists calling prostitution a job. This is weird Confused

EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 14:33

The idea of privilege in this context is not about all men having privilege over all women, in all specific aspects of their lives

So it's an abstract nonsense then.

Men die younger because they work harder. 97% of work related deaths are men. There is female privelage in the workplace. How on earth can you know these facts and still persist? Is getting less money worse than dying?

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 14:29

Prostitution won't count because its women choosing to do less work for more money. Any danger they encounter is self inflicted for cash. Totally different to men getting killed whilst rescuing folk or rebuilding after a disaster.

Collidascope · 19/01/2018 14:26

Anyone know where prostitute comes in the list of most dangerous jobs? Or is it a job like any other except when it comes to counting how many will be murdered by a 'client'?

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 14:23

The idea of privilege in this context is not about all men having privilege over all women, in all specific aspects of their lives.

That dog handler article. The police force involved failed to objectively justify why their test was necessary. Other police forces don't use that test, and therefore have more women dog handlers. What is it that you have a problem with about the decision?

EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 14:16

Explain to me where my privelage is in the workplace then. A proper privelage is living longer. Not falling to your death from a half built block of flats.

Maybe we are getting somewhere right enough.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5265409/Police-ordered-change-way-recruit-dog-handlers.html

All we need to do is ask criminals to run away slower.

sawdustformypony · 19/01/2018 14:12

Yes, thank goodness someone has finally understood what women want.

Party !! Gin Wine Cake

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/01/2018 14:09

Yes, thank goodness someone has finally understood what women want.

EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 14:08

I thought men had privelage though? Those hard, body breaking jobs are not privelage. Doing a job like that means you die younger. 97% of workplace deaths are men.

Do women just want more money for less work and less death or what?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 19/01/2018 14:08

We so need a sarcastic emoji

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