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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it legal for a man to use the women's toilet in England? Scotland?

191 replies

SerciteEland · 15/01/2018 17:31

If not, can someone please point me to where I can find text of the law regulating this? I've tried searching here to no avail: www.legislation.gov.uk/search

I was always under the impression that it WAS illegal for a man to enter the women's room but now I'm not so sure and it seems a rather hard thing to search for.

I assume it must be since apparently a reading of the 2010 Equality Act has been invoked to allow transgender women to use the women's room. www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36395646

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/19

But I can't seem to find the original law prohibiting men from being in the ladies'.

Further, I've only really started to pay attention to the trans issue within the last few years (first as an ally from 2011-2014 and thereafter becoming progressively more and more gender critical after hitting peak trans in 2014/15) and I somehow entirely missed that it's now apparently legal for trans women to be in the women's bathrooms. Does anyone have links to good information on how this happened (focused on the UK)? And have there been any documented abuses of it so far?

OP posts:
Wondersense · 02/12/2019 12:49

@Childrenofthestones If you're a Dad with small girls then I can understand why you'd want to take your girls to the women's toilet. I think most women would be understanding of this, even if they feel a bit odd with having you there. What a lot of women here are worried would though, is that if they sense that something's not right, that they won't be able to challenge it or get assistance because the staff will be terrified of being labelled as transphobic.

Barracker · 02/12/2019 12:32

I am most definitely not taking her into a bathroom spattered in urine featuring a bunch of grown men with their dicks hanging out.

Having set your precedent of any man feeling entitled to enter women's spaces and taking umbrage at being expected to leave, you've brilliantly guaranteed that your daughter will never again be able to have a space with no men in it with their dicks hanging out.

"No men allowed in here" barks man, whilst entering the room no men are allowed in.

Or did you imagine other men would respect her privacy as a female after you've demonstrated you don't believe females should have privacy?

Which is it?
Men are entitled to enter female spaces, or they aren't?

Wondersense · 02/12/2019 12:19

@Qgd2019 Dear Lord. Where to start with your response. I hoped that this was some sort of troll attempt but I've heard to many things like this being said that I'm going to have to take it seriously. I guess I will go through it line by questionable line. If you want to argue your point, you really need to present much better points that the one you have.

I am actually a transwoman and however you wanna insult me and people like me over petty nonsense is your problem.

It is certainly not petty nonsense and you framing it as such shows you have a long, LONG way to understand what it's like to grow up a girl and become a woman.

Males and females use your bathroom at home.

Yes they do. Unless there is something wrong in the household, the bathroom will be shared by people who know and trust each other. It is not the same as a random stranger entering a public facility.

If someone wants to sexually assault people I doubt they would go through the hassle of pretending to be trans to do it. They'd just sexually assault women and kids in the street.

Not true. Again and again we see that sexual abusers are more than willing to go to great lengths to have access to vulnerable people. They ideally don't want to go to prison so will find a way of abusing with a minimal chance of being detected - after all, they do want to go on abusing and they won't be able to do that easily if they're locked away. How would they go about the hassle of pretending to be trans if all that's required (according to trans ideology), is to say that they feel like a woman?? If men are willing to go to the trouble of having careers where they can access vulnerable people, then what on earth makes you think they won't exploit trans ideology to get what they want??? Pretending to be trans or gender fluid really isn't that difficult. In fact it will become easier and easier. That's part of the problem.

LangCleg · 02/12/2019 11:49

Zombie thread.

Clymene · 02/12/2019 11:48

You sir, are a twat of the highest order. Take something with you to clean the disgusting piss splattered toilets in the men's toilets. Lobby for changing facilities in male facilities.

You are a man and you do not belong in the women's toilets. Ever.

richardmuscat · 02/12/2019 11:42

If, as a dad, I am faced with the situation where the only changing area available for a baby is in the female bathroom then I have no qualms going in there. I am not using it -- my child is.

And the same applies if my daughter at an age where she still requires parental assistance needs the loo. I am most definitely not taking her into a bathroom spattered in urine featuring a bunch of grown men with their dicks hanging out.

Fraggling · 28/08/2019 21:10

I could fit 2 small kids in and our cubicles have a fuck off massive sanitary bin in as well!

Nevertheless I can easily see that facilities for men with children / babies are not well catered to, although better than in the past.

The answer is for men to continue to agitate for better facilities and more understanding from fellow men when families use the gents.

Not for men to be allowed in the women's.

jellyfrizz · 28/08/2019 19:38

People often talk about 'teaching men to be more accepting' but that's not a quick fix..

It won't EVER be fixed if people just accept it.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 28/08/2019 16:00

I could fit a 3 and 5 year old in a cubicle with me. Alternatively you stand outside with one child holding the unlocked door shut then swap them over. That you feel uncomfortable with men in the men’s doesn’t mean girls/women should have to put up with men (you) in the women’s.

Childrenofthestones · 28/08/2019 15:09

Fully explained in my post above

OldCrone · 28/08/2019 14:53

The logistics of a dad with two daughters means you can't use the gents, as I found out the hard way.

Why not? Women take their young sons into the ladies, so why can't a man take his young daughters into the men's? Assuming that the men's toilet has a cubicle that's clean enough to use.

Childrenofthestones · 28/08/2019 14:16

Birdsfoottrefoil said....
"Childrenofthestones what was to stop you taking your young girls into the men’s?"

Essentially, as I've said logistics.
As a dad with one little girl, not a problem
as we can both fit into a cubicle at the same time.
When you have a 3 year-old and a 5 year old all three of you can't fit in the cubicle along with your rucksack and shut the door. As a woman in the ladies this wouldn't matter.
As a bloke with little girls in the gents things very quickly came to a head when one day I was seeing to my youngest on the toilet while my eldest stood behind me with the door open. I glanced back to see she was ok and saw she was staring to the left.
Sticking my head out of the door I saw she was looking at a man in the adjacent urinals, who was holding his dick ( not on show) who was staring back at her.

"WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU LOOKING AT?"

Was my immediate response to him and he quickly looked down and then walked away.
From then on I used disabled loos apart from occasions like I have described where they were desperate and the disabled loos were being used. Unfortunately, and understandably, when they are being used by the disabled they are often ages until they have finished and come out.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 28/08/2019 11:55

Childrenofthestones what was to stop you taking your young girls into the men’s?

CharlieParley · 28/08/2019 11:43

Also should add, LisaVito, that toilets are explicitly one of the facilities where sex-based exemptions can be and usually are applied.

CharlieParley · 28/08/2019 11:41

That case was won by the male in question only because at the time the statutory guidance given by the EHRC, which is legally binding, misrepresented the law.

EHRC very quietly changed its guidance last year by deleting the erroneous passages. Another case like this, the landlord would win. And rightly so.

Also I've seen plenty of masculine women, feminine men and males and females who identify as trans. I've never mistaken a woman for a man, no matter how butch.

The only ones that come close to passing at first glance, from a distance or in photos are women who've been on testosterone for a long time (although their size and shape tend to give them away) and men who've had serious amounts of feminisation surgeries (although for me their size, movements, behaviour, voice modulation and mannerisms tend to give them away).

Generally speaking only males who finish transitioning medically by their early 20s have a chance of truly passing as the opposite sex in the eyes of women. IIRC, that's 1 in 10 transsexuals and 1 in 100 of all men claiming womanhood. So you're far more likely to encounter an obvious male than one who passes.

And those operating toilets can and some do, of course, enforce sex segregation. But what is far more important is the social taboo that has kept men out of women's toilets. There has never been an equally strong taboo in the other direction because women generally avoid the men's and they are putting themselves at risk, but that isn't true the other way around.

As for if women use the gents why can't men use the ladies?

I have never used the gents, I doubt I ever will. And just because some women have done so in an emergency doesn't mean all of us lose the right to female only facilities. It means that toilet providers must try harder to ensure there are enough women's toilets.

Fraggling · 28/08/2019 11:24

Essentially this social convention has been destroyed, and these facilities are now open to men, in many cases with the blessing of whoever provides them.

Women did not ask for this, we don't want it. But it's done.

LisaVito · 28/08/2019 09:48

There's a bit of misdirection somewhat I feel in parts of this thread.

Exemptions are unlikely to be triggered for toilet use.

There are some cases of tranwomen suing successfully.

www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

A GRC is misdirection as you can never ask to see one, nor is anyone checking for them at the entry to toilets.

So making it easier or harder to get a GRC is irrelevant, unless a case goes to court for whatever reason, the vast majority of trans people will be using the public toilets that match their self-identified gender, or will likely not use a public toilet, and go on their way.
You hardly ever hear of these tings going to court, so in effect a GRC is not affecting current practices nor will it.

The main thing is about most of the discussion around toilet use, none of it can be enforced or policed. If we use visual cue's, more passable transwomen, ie. those that most match up to patriarchal beauty standards would benefit, and those that did not would be excluded, and of course there's the problem of GNC women being caught in the cross-fire.

This isn't new either, I doubt April Ashley or Caroline Cossey ever used the mens.

I don't know what the answer is, but demanding people use the toilets of their birth sex will not work, and there is no way of enforcing it.

sueanddumplings · 28/08/2019 09:24

Secondly, a person who has obtained a Gender Rights Certificate must be treated for all purposes as if he/she was the opposite sex. What does this mean for the single-sex services? It has not been tested in law. On the face of it, it means that anybody with a GRC can go into single-sex services designed for the opposite sex and nobody can stop them. This is why self-ID is such a big deal, because it means that anyone can get a GRC.

Actually it's made very clear in the Equality Act that someone with a GRC can still be excluded.

Childrenofthestones · 28/08/2019 08:44

IrkThePurist said........
"There is no law prohibiting anyone from using the toilet of the opposite sex. I've seen men take their kids into the women's to change them or help them, and no one minds"

Absolutely not my experience.
I'm male
Twice I've taken my 2 (then under 5) little girls into the ladies toilets, both times because the disabled was occupied and one of them was about to wet her knickers.
On both occasions a woman that was in the toilets, that said nothing to me (even though on both occasions I said "Sorry about this" ) went out and complained to the management, and on both occasions and member of staff turned up immediately threatening to turf me out.
Once was a cinema once was an art center.
Ironically the woman in the cinema that complained had her 7 or 8 yr old boy with her in the ladies.
The logistics of a dad with two daughters means you can't use the gents, as I found out the hard way.

LangCleg · 28/08/2019 08:25

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

Deary me. You're aware of men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them, right?

What's the worst that could happen? A woman is unimpressed by your trousersnake? On the other hand, what's the worst that could happen the other way around?

missedith01 · 28/08/2019 07:34

I have two sons year 3 and 4, so they're past the age when I want to have eyes on them all the time when we're out, but they're still very much the age when I want to clock them every 30 seconds. Grin

The older one refuses to go into the ladies with me, quite right too, and so the younger one refuses too (although I suspect that's mostly wanting to follow his brother).

I worry about this, but not much I can do, they're determined and they're right, they ought to use the gents. So we've got a system, I've explained I can't go in there but I will be outside and if anything happens they yell as loud as they can and I will come in and in an emergency that's OK.

I am so averse to going in the gents that I don't even like to stand right outside, I stand about 5 yards away bc I assume guys don't want me clocking them as they go in and out.

Even with all these arrangements there have been several occasions where one of them has been in there 20 minutes and I've had to open the door and call them to make sure they're OK, and one memorable visit when I got distracted by someone asking directions and one of them sneaked past me, got back to the car and I had to ask a guy to check if there was anyone small in the gents. I really, really don't want to go in there.

I just don't get it when people don't respect the privacy of others. It's absolutely hard wired into me.

I also have a year 3 daughter and she insists on a loo buddy every time bc she just wants to hold hands and chat. I'm so glad of that. Grin

hoteltango · 26/08/2019 23:33

I think in the past it would have been dealt with under the public order offences act or something like that.

I can well understand a bloke not being happy if a female came in while he was peeing at the urinals. But it isn't the same the other way round. Very few transwomen "pass", so my instinctive reaction would be "there's a man here" and feel more than just very uncomfortable. I do feel sorry for transpeople who are just trying to go about their lives quietly, but they're not the ones at the forefront of what is a very aggressive campaign.

GirlDownUnder · 26/08/2019 22:59

ShortCircuit181 so am I right in saying you’ve never pissed in public? Never on a drunken night out, just stopped to piss on the nearest wall? I think that’d make you pretty unusual.

I’ve seen a lot of men do this, and I’ll be honest I’ve never actually seen their dicks cos a) most men will do as much as poss to shield their junk b) I’m not looking long enough

If I really need to piss, I can’t just fairly discreetly pee against a wall. I have to pull my jeans and undies round my ankles and squat in such a way that I don’t piss on my self.
This position exposes most everything, and would be hard to flee or fight from, all while nicely hobbled.

If it’s that ^ or the men’s - it’s kinda Hobson’s choice.

And none of my reasons for using a men’s is why a man would use a ladies.

sackrifice · 26/08/2019 22:18

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

The numerous men i've seen pissing in public didn't bat a fucking eyelid.

Whereas when a male was in a female toilets and i was the only one there I was petrified.

You worry about being embarrassed whereas we worry about being raped, assaulted or fucking strangled.

Jesus fucking wept.

ShortCircuit181 · 26/08/2019 20:33

The polite thing would probably be to ask a bloke to give a quick heads up first so nobody is 'caught by surprise'.

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