“Transwomen are women”

I am a TERF but I do want to listen to trans people and too many of them describe this 'feeling' to dismiss it as nothing so the above is attempt to try and make sense of that feeling and look at the research we do have - it cannot just come from nowhere IMO - but whether it is biological or cultural, we just don't know - but more likely an interaction of both

But can we not accept it is psychological? It's a mistake, a pathology, something that needs treating? Something rather like other dysmorphias like anorexia or the one where people are convinced that limbs are not theirs?

but other than this it is awfully hard to see where nature stops and nurture/culture begin.

And isn't that the problem with this debate - we won't ever all agree because there is no final definitive answer on that.

I am a TERF but I do want to listen to trans people and too many of them describe this 'feeling' to dismiss it as nothing so the above is attempt to try and make sense of that feeling and look at the research we do have - it cannot just come from nowhere IMO - but whether it is biological or cultural, we just don't know - but more likely an interaction of both.

I have faith that we will get to a point where we will have to question the notion of GRA but I think it will probably take a big event like the Olympics where females are sidelined to get there.

The thing that I really don’t get is why being a trans woman isn’t good enough for them. Why do they need to be classified as a woman? Surely being a trans woman is not a bad thing. Surely being a trans woman is a good thing and something to be proud of and embrace because it is what you are. It should be celebrated

It used to be exactly good enough. Sure, individuals got upset if they were referred to as 'he', but most people played along because we understood it was about politeness and suchlike and not a demand that we them as women.

There is evidence of sex based play however, small standard deviations. It's hard to say exactly where this comes from, but as some of that research shows there are a lot of studies that have looked at the play behaviour of girls who have had high androgen exposure in the womb and they have higher levels of 'masculine' play

I get this, if masculinity is associated with higher levels of aggression and related behaviours, but other than this it is awfully hard to see where nature stops and nurture/culture begin.

I think the pink comes in at the cultural level, yes

There is evidence of sex based play however, small standard deviations. It's hard to say exactly where this comes from, but as some of that research shows there are a lot of studies that have looked at the play behaviour of girls who have had high androgen exposure in the womb and they have higher levels of 'masculine' play

I think the two interact, its the standard response. I'm not blank slate but I'm not biological determinism either.

The thing that I really don’t get is why being a trans woman isn’t good enough for them. Why do they need to be classified as a woman? Surely being a trans woman is not a bad thing. Surely being a trans woman is a good thing and something to be proud of and embrace because it is what you are. It should be celebrated.

So what they TRAs are suggesting is that being a trans woman is lesser than being a woman. Surely this is all about an inferiority complex. Trans women are different to women. They have a different set of issues and concerns to women. That doesn’t make then different or lesser.

It is sad that TRAs cannot celebrate or embrace their trans identity as being equally good as being a woman, just a bit different.

I guess where I come from with this is that androgens do seem to make males more violent/aggressive ('masculine') and therefore that is classed as male behaviour, so lower levels of testosterone may well make a male less 'masculine' in comparison to the average female

But that only accounts for aggression does it not? Not liking ballet and pink rather than trucks and football?

Years ago (15 years at least) I was doing what was then known as Biological Psychology degree (now known as Neuro Psychology) and there certainly was some research that androgen exposure in the womb does affect sexual behaviour.

So female rats exposed to androgens in the womb will display lordosis (humping) if they have a lot of testosterone and the development of their genitals can be adversely affected - it permanently masculinises the females.

Not sure this is the exact research but something similar here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11752687

Notice that any changes in the male rats (smaller body weight) were eliminated by the time they were weaned.

This is an example of the type of work that has been going on for years around hormonal exposure in the womb and it's effect on sexuality and 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviour.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350266/

I guess where I come from with this is that androgens do seem to make males more violent/aggressive ('masculine') and therefore that is classed as male behaviour, so lower levels of testosterone may well make a male less 'masculine' in comparison to the average female. BUT that doesn't make them female but just lower down the sliding scale of masculinity, and so it goes right back to the gender roles that are a powerful force in this.

Yes, a male may have had lower testosterone and therefore naturally is less 'masculine,' so he may feel like he does not fit into the strict societal male roles and develop gender dysphoria as a result, but he is not a female. So this is a societal and cultural issue rather than anything else - we have become more pink and blue as capitalism has marched on. In other areas of the world, e.g. Iran, it is religion setting the strict roles for men and women, and they too have high levels of trans people.

I understand TRAs say they feel like a women, but what I hear is you don't feel like a man.

Well yes as per the LM saying that when it comes to pregnancy, there is literally no difference between a person with balls and a cock, and a person with a fully functioning female reproductive system who is fertile, but who is at a time of the month that she won't get pregnant.

Right.

Barracker - was that original? I love it! :) :) :) :)

Sorry, I meant that they are essentially equating infertile women with people who never had the capability to reproduce.

That is a great article and has really made me think about the really hurtful nature of the TRA argument that trans women are women because some women don’t have periods or can’t have children.

What they are essentially saying in that infertility makes you less of a woman, even though your chromosomes say otherwise.

No, infertile women are still women. Because they were born women. They know it and we know it. They shouldn’t be used as a shoe horn to open up the catagory of women to men.

I have bookmarked that article by Logical Marcus because I know I'll need to refer back to it from time to time.

It was brilliant to read.

That article by Logical Marcus is excellent - nigh on novel length, but excellent nonetheless! That guy is also an excellent follow on Twitter because he comes at opposing gender ideology from outside a feminist framework and outside a right wing/religious framework. I learn a lot from his tweets.

NotTerfnorCis

This is a good article in response to Serano:

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026" target="_blank">https://medium.com/<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026" target="_blank">@LogicalMarcuss*<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026" target="_blank">/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026

This question is such a massive sticking point and I do think it holds discussion back. You can still talk about the absurdity of having a person who looks like a man and has a penis being housed in a female jail, taking a place in a female refuge, performing smear tests etc.

Discussion would eventually come back to the question of "well, can any transwomen use these spaces?" and that is the time to define what is 'woman enough'. Perhaps I'm naive in assuming that this central question can be laid aside though.

I wonder whether any studies are being undertaken (or have been undertaken?) following infant/child/teenage/adult brain development to determine when these purported differences in structure arise. There are clearly huge ethical implications of such a study but it would be interesting. In any case, if such a study is undertaken I expect we won't see any results for many years.

53rd - thank you for that brilliant, brilliant link. I love the way all the answers are the same, except for the fact that person B is effectively "doing it backwards, and in heels." And the punchline is just... fab!

There's an article here 'debunking trans women are not women arguments'. It's incredibly disingenuous. All the usual 'biology isn't a factor because some cis women also don't have periods' kind of thing. medium.com/@juliaserano/debunking-trans-women-are-not-women-arguments-85fd5ab0e19c

The flaw is, racial equality, gay rights, etc. are not analogous to the TRA movement.

Bertrand, I've often wondered where "transwomen are women" came from. I don't think that people who say that weighed everything up and then came to that conclusion, I think they started with that view and then used motivated reasoning in order to justify it.

T got associated with LGB*.
Progressive types (I don't know what word to use!) obviously supported the T as the LGB, as they would women, ethnic minorities, other oppressed groups etc.
TRA's then start saying "transwomen are women".
Some people went "hmm, hang on, they don't face quite the same problems, their rights could conflict with women's..."
Others went "transwomen are part of LGBT so must be supported, listened to (and perhaps not questioned?) along with everyone else, thus we should accept what they say - after all, we wouldn't argue with/talk over black people re. civil rights, gay people on section 28, etc. The unwillingness to question TRAs for fear of seeming right-wing/backward/on wrong side of history prompted motivated reasoning as to why transwomen were women, including co-opting intersex narratives, brain sex, etc. in a desperate attempt to justify this view as well as an urge to squash any dissenting views.

That's just what I think though. Maybe it's bollocks.

*How much the LGB has in common with the T is debatable, other than (perhaps) gender-nonconformity and being on the receiving end of abuse/discrimination (actual; not "lesbians won't sleep with me, OMG transphobia!").

Re brains, I've often seen TRAs say it's all to do with the hormones everyone is exposed to in the womb, that they get too much or too little testosterone, but I've Googled and I can't find much on that.

I was washed in utero
It really isn't fair
My mother cruelly laundered me
And now I've too much hair
She didn't read my label
For proper foetus care
And rinsed me in testosterone
Then spun me for a dare
It's why I am the way I am
A willy like my brother
But I have got a ladybrain
I blame it on my mother

Science, innit?

That quiz, how did they know? And nothing about knitting or cooking.m

That is a very excellent quiz

I consider that having conceived, gestated and given birth is a pretty reliable test of my chromosomes. I haven't had my DNA tested to see if I'm human either, but I can make a fairly confident guess...

This is my favourite quiz on male vs female brains: victoriads.blog/2017/12/30/quiz-do-you-have-a-male-or-female-brain/

Re brains, I've often seen TRAs say it's all to do with the hormones everyone is exposed to in the womb, that they get too much or too little testosterone, but I've Googled and I can't find much on that.

lol yes the ones where I am a man and DH is in the middle