“Transwomen are women”

This is a quote from one of the comments on the donation page, by C Rose - if you're here and you read this C Rose my heart went out to you, and this is too important evidence to see it disappear off that page. This is exactly, in a nut shell, why transwomen are not women.

' I first became aware of trans rights activists in 2015. I have a collection of rare medical conditions, my biology of xx chromosomes means that women are affected differently to xy people. In fact trans indenting males with the condition are contraindicated from accessing female hormones with this condition. Trans rights activists in 2015, attacked a six thousand people Facebook group for women only, with these rare medical conditions. We are incredibly socially isolated due to our health, we are also isolated due to the fact the NHS lets us down. Our specific needs are based on our biology. We came together to discuss our condition and TRAs tried to take that away from us. They tried to dictate that we can't talk about periods, pregnancy, endometriosis, Polycystic ovaries, menopause etc, which are hugely impacting on our health. They accused us of killing trans people, they terrorised us for simply talking in a fb group. The group had to go secret, blocking others from support. They left us scared and isolated. Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (PoTS) is one condition, it is a condition with one of the highest chances of suicide (PoTSUK medical research citation), we are a vulnerable group. The national neurology hospital states stress be it physical or emotional makes us physically ill. The TRAs made us ill, suicidal and isolated attacking us for simply talking about our health.'

I didn't tell anyone to shut the fuck up. How dare you insinuate I did @UpaBitLate

I'm not asking everyone to be serious. Obviously collecting money on a gofundme site to launch a legal challenge against the Labour Party regarding AWS is serious. I'm happy to lighten the mood.

But for goodness sake, nits and mosquitoes?

My ex was a shit of the highest order and never got nits, nor did he ever clear his children of nits, that was my job, apparently. Should I conclude that abusive men never have nits?

Do you want posters who have gone off topic to leave the thread and let the grown-ups talk, or just shut the fuck up?

So rude.

Erm OK

Didn't realise that there was an agenda for this thread. Are we "time boxing" it too?

Jesus.

I think there could be some biological factors at work with "old fashioned" dysphoric transexuals. But, bear in mind that "third sexes/two spirit people/whatever the trans movement fancies appropriating from other cultures on a whim" are more prevalent in societies which have rigid gender roles (in the old school social sciences/feminist theory sense of "gender" as socially sanctioned, culturally specific roles deemed appropriate to one biological sex or the other). This suggests to me that a major part of the explanation is cultural/social.

I think the process goes like this in those who aren't dysphoric: you have a feeling you don't quite fit. This may be partly nurture (your parents told you you couldn't play with toy cars and wanted to) but it's possible that there is also some biologically underpinning factor at play too (which in and of itself still wouldn't settle the "innately trans" debate, since we know how plastic the brain is during infancy, childhood and right through the teen years). However, how you personally conceptualise this feeling is largely culturally determined. Hence those of us who were tomboys in the 70s saw ourselves as tomboys - biological females who wanted to adopt the role of being a boy because what was on offer to us as girls sucked. Today's girls who like "boy" things instead conceptualize themselves as transgender/agender/non-binary. No actual difference in the experience, just a difference in how we frame the experience (driven by the wider culture in which we seek for explanations).

Those who are dysphoric - again, I wonder how much of a role culture plays in enabling/mitigating against one's own personal ability to come to terms with one's sexed body, or alternatively to decide that only significant modifications to one's body will alleviate the feelings of dysphoria.

It is just the way lots of threads go, Elendon.

Nothing wrong with a bit of chit-chat alongside the more serious issues, I rather like it.

Seriously? No. Didn't realise we had to be serious at all times.

Are we seriously discussing whether men get nits or males get bitten more by mosquitoes?

All responses are anecdotal and in no way is this relevant to 'transwomen are women'.

FGS!

The simple question is:

The kitchen bin is full and bin emptying in your household is your job.
Do you:
a) empty the bin when you notice it is full.
b) say 'I'll empty the bin after I've watched this/read this/finished this game/had a 20 minute shit', and then fail too empty it until two days later when the bin is overflowing and your partner 'nags' you to do it?

Biomedical research has demonstrated biological differences between females and males in virtually every organ and system of the body. Research has also revealed the genetic and molecular basis of a number of gender-based differences in health and disease, some of which are related to genotype — XX in the female and XY in the male.

These findings suggest that there are multiple differences in the basic cellular biochemistry of males and females that can affect an individual's health. Many of these differences do not arise from differences in the hormonal regime to which males and females are exposed, but are a direct result of the genetic differences between the two sexes.

Further studies on the relative roles of the sex chromosome genes is likely to illuminate the reasons for expression of some diseases within and between the sexes. Understanding the bases of these gender-based differences is also important for the development of new approaches to disease prevention, diagnosis, and treatment.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22239/

Note the total confusion over the word 'gender' in that: diseases do NOT manifest more or less depending on the length of your hair, your clothing choices and the height of your heels.

I've thought before now about the genetic conditions that affect only one biological sex. Genetics don't seem to be confused about which is which.

I've also heard that mosquitos bite women more - due to our skin being "less tough" and our blood being "sweeter" - how much of this is cobblers I have no idea.

This one I think is cobblers - DS1 (child) is the mosquito magnet in our house - if he's in the room, no-one else need fear being bitten. The rest of us get bitten at roughly the same rate - maybe DP a bit more, or maybe he just whinges more.

There are lots of men who have long hair and lots of women who have short hair.

nits

men have shorter hair
and may be less inclined to rub up against others so much (affection)

Women have a lot more hair and possibly more physical contact including with kids & other people's kids (due to socialised roles)

Anecdotally - when I was a late teen, I got lice, and so did the boys I was friends with including my boyfriend. We were grunge types and the boys all had long hair, my boyfriend had waist length hair

I've also heard that mosquitos bite women more - due to our skin being "less tough" and our blood being "sweeter" - how much of this is cobblers I have no idea.

We could be more sensitive to bites, react more? We have a keener sense of smell, do we feel itches more?
With lice, do we feel more disgust? Is it harder to get rid of? Many men would just cut their hair dead short wouldn't they, it's probably more difficult for us to manage.

Dunno.

Why do men take 15 hours to take a shit? That's an as yet unresolved sex difference. I suggested to DH it was because he had "poorly developed, weak internal muscles" just to switch it up from always being women who are framed as weak, the exception. He conceded this may be true based on the whole pushing a baby out capability thing.

Excellent summary DonkeySkin.

I do wish people would understand that there are different reasons for transitioning.

All of which are either harmful to women or related to gender roles which are harmful to women and men.

It's an an incredibly negative ideology, which ever way you look at it. Which is being marketed as aspirational/progressive/positive.

Except when the goalposts are are flipped and it's difficult, distressing, devastating, of course.

A nit test sounds promising though.

PocketCoffeeEspresso I heard that about nits too. I do believe it to be true as when DS, DD and myself were absolutely riddled with them, DH was left untouched.

I am a TERF but I do want to listen to trans people and too many of them describe this 'feeling' to dismiss it as nothing so the above is attempt to try and make sense of that feeling and look at the research we do have - it cannot just come from nowhere IMO - but whether it is biological or cultural, we just don't know - but more likely an interaction of both

It's a mistake to assume that gender dysphoria is a single, definable condition. Actually there are a whole lot of different mental health conditions being subsumed under the banner of 'trans'. For instance, men and women transition for very different reasons, and even among men, gender dysphoria has different aetiologies.

The main ones for men are Blanchard's homosexual/non homosexual typology, whereby homosexual trans males are those who felt feminine/different from other boys from a very young age, and heterosexual/bisexual trans-identified men are actualising a sexual fetish called autogynophilia, where they get aroused by cross-dressing and thinking of themselves a 'woman'. This typology is very well documented clinically (and on the countless 'sissy' porn sites which cater to autogynophiles ).

The recent upsurge in teenage girls and young women identifying as trans (whereas female transitioners were very rare up until about a decade ago) seems to fit within a pattern of other body dysmorphic conditions that predominately affect young females, like anorexia. This latest manifestation appears to be driven by a reaction to cultural lesbophobia and misogyny, as well as drawing in lots of young women who have Autism Spectrum Disorders. There's a strong social contagion aspect to it too, with multiple girls within one peer group sometimes suddenly deciding they are 'trans'.

The mystical idea that people can have feminine brains/souls in male bodies and vice versa is appealingly simple and goes right back to the 19th century idea of 'inverts' (which was the medical 'explanation' then for homosexuality), but the reality is a lot more complex.

This article by two sexologists gives a good overview. I have some disagreements with the way they ignore the political and cultural context of 'gender' and treat it purely as a medical issue, but it does provide a useful summary of what the clinical data reveal:

Gender Dysphoria is Not One Thing

I was told that adult males rarely get nits for some reason - is that a myth? Does someone know if it's true? Does someone know if transwomen or transmen get nits so we can compare?

do men and women smell different
I'm pondering pheromones

You need a new thread, Bert.

'If you believe transwomen are women, tell me why. Please only post if you think they are.'

You really need the people who believe it to be the ones who answer attempting to explain.

Among themselves, without us challenging them, they may come up with something better than 'because I said so' or 'because they want to be' or because they feel like they are.

To be fair, this sight is so gender critical (good) that it's easy for such people to cry 'transphobes' and run away. If we didn't all pile in to challenge, we/they may learn more the thinness of their argument will become even more apparent.

Did anyone see the bbc tv programme of yet another transman having a baby - he ? Looked feminine and acknowledged this, had not commenced any medical treatment to become more malelike and was pregnant, however if anyone would refer to him as a mother this would have a negative affect on their mental health - his main concern was the proper use of pronouns - its crazy - we are being brow beaten into colluding with some seriously narcissistic / controlling behaviour for fear of being labelled transphobic

The most "feminine" man is still a man, with male bone structure, heart muscle, prostate gland, penis. The most "masculine" woman is still a woman, with periods, breasts, ovaries and the capacity to bear a child.

I agree with this totally. I guess I was just trying to answer the OP as to how this transwoman are women narrative gets going and it may start with a slight deviation from standard male hormones, which do affect behaviour and therefore do affect how they fit into the aceepted male behaviours / stereotypes

But there is no evidence the 'feeling' is purely psychological

Feelings can be generated external stimuli or for biological reason

Hunger for example can be biologically true or psychologically generated by external stimuli/conditioning

I'm not saying the 'feeling' that trans people describe is one or the other, just that we don't know

But why does it matter whether a person is masculine or feminine? Why does anyone define themselves by whether they conform to "male" traits or "female" ones? Why define or categorise anyone by their empathy or their level of violence or their liking of pink/blue?

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that they are male or female, biologically, physically, hormonally, in every way.

The most "feminine" man is still a man, with male bone structure, heart muscle, prostate gland, penis. The most "masculine" woman is still a woman, with periods, breasts, ovaries and the capacity to bear a child.

Do we have segregated toilets for people who like pink? Or enjoy tinkering with car engines? Of course we don't, to suggest such a thing would be ridiculous.

And ironically we will never ever get to the answers if science has to recognise the GRA

No more male - female differentiators will be reliable