Transwomen should be considered for all women shortlist,Guardian

Ah. So UnitedKingdom and Elphaba, you intend to just make sad superior noises and not engage with the facts being shared as those facts aren't ones you like?

So you're ok with homophobia and in particular erasing lesbians who should not be allowed to choose not to sleep with people with penises. You're ok with separating the concept of 'women' from biology. I can see why you're not prepared to try and defend that position, I really can. It's utterly indefensible.

And how exactly are women’s rights and trans women’s rights the same thing?
Women’s rights are centred around sex based oppression, access to contraception, abortion, maternity pay, pelvic mesh’s etc.
Trans rights are based on gender.

These actually contradict each other.
How can a woman have the right to be examined by a female person and also allow male bodied people to fall in the category of women?

Thanks Datun.

There are a few Jiggly but they get labelled 'truscum' or, I've noticed lately, are dismissed as not really trans

I think they will be able to get on with a more general agenda.

Have you seen their 'general agenda'? I urge you to read it. It was written by the people who were consulted in parliament over the original proposals to amend the GRA.

It includes such gems as:

We fight for an end to borders, prisons and police.

There will be no clinics, and no authorities. We will conduct our own research, and experiment with our own bodies.

We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request.

We demand voice coaching that does not coerce us to alter our voices in ways we do not express a need for, but respects our accents and our right to express ourselves however we desire.

We demand medical training to enable us to safely carry out medical procedures & research for each other, for anyone of us who wants to learn.

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/trans-health-manifesto/#more-10439

If you think this manifesto sounds crazy, you would be absolutely right.

But the people who wrote it advised the government on Maria Millers transgender equality report.

It's there for anyone to see. 98 pages, which credits them as contributors.

I'd be delighted if transwomen were interested in defending women's rights. I haven't seen much evidence of that.

The general agenda is womens rights. I thought that was clear.

Just some women on MN, United. There are frequent calls for these frothing echo-chamber threads to be sectioned off. I have read many of the threads to understand and appreciate the arguments and I could say a lot more, but I'll just get raged at, so I'm not going to bother.

Defending themselves from what?! Women having opinions?

Will you show me the rape or death threats or severe homophobia on social media coming from gender critical women? I can show you hundreds from TRAs.

And what general agenda might that be?

In due course when their every moment is not about defending themselves from women like on mumsnet I think they will be able to get on with a more general agenda.

They clearly care about women enough to go through what they have to live as one so I think they may make very good advocates for women in some ways

You can't 'live as a woman'. There is no such thing.

Being a woman is material a reality involving biology. From contraception to pregnancy, to rape, endometriosis, menopause, wifework, sexism, gender pay gap, FGM, honour killings.

Literally no one is stopping any man, trans or otherwise from supporting feminism.

But that's not the way it works. Transwomen who represent women prioritise trans issues, not women's issues. Unsurprisingly, they do not understand, nor care about women's issues.

Lily Madigan who is a 19-year-old boy representing women as the Labour Party women's officer, maintains that biology doesn't matter because he has as much chance of getting pregnant as any other woman because women aren't fertile all the time. So you mustn't single him out on that basis.

Shon Faye, another famous transwoman tells women to enjoy their erasure.

Paris Lees who writes for mainstream media tells women that section harassment is like being 'eye fucked' and it's hot to fuck someone who is crying.

India Willoughby maintains that her breasts are not sexual so there's no reason why she can't get them out in public.

Jane Fae is apparently 'frightened' of Jenni Murray.

Men who transition to be women either have gender dysphoria, in which case they are not the best people to represent anyone. Or they are fetishists (AGP).

The very last people to represent women are those who fetishise womanhood and female biology.

One persons TBTOTD is another persons FFSWU (for fucks sake wake up) thread.

I know elphaba. Evil bloody women who keep insisting on sharing actual facts such as the LP trans woman officer who only represents trans interests and actively won't represent biological women's interests because it's cis normative and their publically stated ideal is to separate biology from the concept of women - because it excludes men who want to self define. Total bores who won't participate in their own erasure and be nice like women are supposed to be while being abused! And won't shut up and let women be gaslighted into thinking this is a lovely flyffybequality experience instead of the biggest threat to the rights of women in a century.

Why on earth would any sensible woman want to talk about that?

Yup, that’s the one.
Also known as the most oppressed group ever ever ever amen.

They clearly care about women enough to go through what they have to live as one

What has Lily Madigan gone through and in what way is Lily 'living as a woman'? What does it mean to 'live as a woman'?

I’m have to ask... a male lesbian is... a man who is attracted to women? So a straight man then?

‘In reality there's unlikely to be many trans women in any given 'women's group’

This is not true, especially of lesbian groups. Pink news had a list of ‘lgbt hero’s of 2017’ and they didn’t put a single female lesbians in it, they had around 6 ‘Male lesbians’ so they thought they’d filled their quota. After an outcry they put in one. One female lesbian in a sea of ‘Male lesbians’.

UnitedKungdom Don't bother trying to reason. This is just their TBTOTD (Trans-Bashing Thread Of The Day). I do wish MN would give them their own board so they can rage away in their own corner like the pedants, or change the title of the Feminism board since that's all it seems to be these days. It's wearying.

Do name me a trans woman in the public eye who has anything valuable to say about maternity, childcare, pay gap...

Mainly they tell women to enjoy catcalling.

I think people are overreacting. There's a transition period where trans women are being settled into the category of women. In reality there's unlikely to be many trans women in any given 'women's group'. This is all just very distracting from our main goal as women for equality and a fairer slice of the pie. I don't care if some of the women coming with us are trans women. They clearly care about women enough to go through what they have to live as one so I think they may make very good advocates for women in some ways. We are all different people but have value just as we are.

'You need people who have lived experience in order to make informed decisions'

Does that include 'James' who has zero lived experience as a woman but announces that he's a woman anyone because he feels like it? I can't believe anyone is taking this utter stupidity seriously. Another Labour voter here who won't be touching them with a bargepole until this gets sorted out

The all women shortlist where every member has a penis will happen soon.

FFS

No woman can vote for them, surely?

But they do. They fucking do.

Orwell is spinning in his grave.