Transwomen should be considered for all women shortlist,Guardian

I think it is important to keep in mind that there is a large segment of the misogynist population who view this as an opportunity to drive women out of the public sphere, or at the very least dramatically reduce women's participation, through legislation.

Sorry, couldn't be arsed. I don't post on these threads for people like you.

Oh, ok. Defended your position 20 times, but can't be bothered to cut and paste a one sentence answer or point me to one of the 20 responses you've already made.

Someone less charitable might suggest that's because you don't actually have and answer because I found it more effort to type this paragraph the following one, which defines woman to me.

Woman =adult, human, female
Female =of the sex which produces large, immobile gametes (ova)

But perhaps your fingers work differently to mine

A Guardian journalist has been Tweeting that they lied to get it shut down. Screenshots and links on the other thread. OJ is otherwise engaged, due to a personal tragedy, so best leave him alone.

I've donated to the Go Fund Me but there are now comments on it saying it has been reported for transphobia - presumably been sent out to a group of activists who are all now going to report it.

www.recordnet.com/article/20150617/NEWS/150619683 I’ve just read about this guy and the massive pissed offness that he caused.

I quote The media continues to promote hate and racial stereotypes and there’s a continuation of the idea that there is such a thing as race, he said. But there is no scientific basis for it.

Read it and substitute race for gender, black for female.
The black community wouldn’t stand for it yet us women are expected to role over.

There is going to be a legal challenge over this, they are fundraising for it. Not to stop transwomen having representation under the category of 'woman' which they should, but to challenge that self-identified gender is enough to put you on a protected woman's shortlist for candidacy. There needs to be trans voices in politics. But we can't ignore that female people are discriminated against because they have womb/babies etc as well as the gender they present as being. The campaign is "Keep All Women Shortlists Female" by Jennifer James on go fund me.

There is absolutely no need for female only shortlists and such if males can be on them too. Makes it all utterly pointless. How on earth can some not see this?!

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

*"Men who transition to be women either have gender dysphoria, in which case they are not the best people to represent anyone. Or they are fetishists (AGP).

The very last people to represent women are those who fetishise womanhood and female biology."*
This seems to me to be a very important point.

Righto.
Because biology now unimportant.
Got it.
So, our aim is to get more people who call themselves women to be represented.
And if that leads to a higher proportion of people with penises being represented and an even smaller proportion of people with vaginas that is brilliant.

What's the line from Animal Farm?

More vaginas good.
More penises better.

Is that it?

I don't have time or energy to engage with your style of thinking today.

Sorry, couldn't be arsed.
*
Hmmm. You see, this is kind of the problem, @UnitedKungdom*. The trans threads are brimming full of people who CAN be arsed. They are constantly putting forward thoughtful, articulate, well-reasoned arguments for their concerns about the trans movement. Because it’s important to them. Including some lovely trans people - the very people you claim you are protecting.

So you’ll forgive us when this “Oh, I just can’t be bothered to argue my point today ” type contribution doesn’t get taken too seriously.

I was sent here by a transsexual friend. Far from being threatened by gender critical women, this friend thinks women like those who post here, are not just defending their own rights but the rights of transsexuals too.

But y'know - plopping into to make histrionics assertions, refusing to back up those assertions with any meaningful argument, then spouting ad hominems at anyone daring to ask for a meaningful argument. Same old same old. That's the TRA MO, after all.

We have had numerous trans-women post on these threads. All of whom agree that the GRA is being exploited.

Why are you so hostile to the transwomen who do post here, who are concerned about the GRA?

Why do you only stick up for the aggressive misogynist trans rights activists?

Why do you want to fuck over trans people with gender dysphoria?

In reality there's unlikely to be many trans women in any given 'women's group'.

Oh, you sweet summer child, UnitedKungdom. You are clearly not aware of how many "women's" groups, and "lesbian" groups already have transwomen in them who aren't just members, but who have taken control of leadership positions and who demand that these groups centre and prioritise trans issues, as boring old women and lesbians are the actualfax oppressing class, now.

When I said treatment there I obviously meant medical treatment as in their bodies react differently to certain drugs etc rather than treatment from society.

united kungdom

No one here thinks trans people don’t have value to society, I would fight till my last breath for their right to dress however they like, call themselves whatever they like, be free from harassment and have the correct medical treatment.

However having the treatment and wearing different clothes does not ACTUALLY change your sex.
We should be fighting for a society that is tolerant of all people however they express themselves but until Male violence is sorted we still need to make allowances based on sex (and after actually as males and females need different treatment).

The point where you have to stop waving your arms around is at the end of someone’s face.

Trans women are trans women, crack on, I wish them all well.
Trans women are not biologically female.

Unitedkungdom - for those of us who are only recently starting to learn about this issue perhaps you would take the trouble to point us towards a thread where you have taken the time to share your view. Of all the threads I've read on here so far (admittedly only the first couple of pages) I haven't really seen any response to some key concerns being raised.

you don't represent all people's views on the role or value of trans people in the world.

This is not about the role or value of trans people in the world, it's about political transactivism, which is an extremist group which many trans people feel does not represent them and is doing them harm, but are the ones taking the public positions and forcing through political change.

This is also about refusing to allow women and girls' rights to be removed and devalued, and seen as unnecessary.

UnitedKungdom

Eh? What on earth makes you think transpeople are not posting on these threads??

UnitedKungdom

Take it one point at a time then. Because rights absolutely clash. Almost every step of the way.

How would you solve the problem of a woman wanting a woman to do her smear test and a man demanding he is accepted as that woman?

Sorry, couldn't be arsed. I don't post on these threads for people like you. I post just in case some poor trans person ends up reading any of these threads so they know that not everyone is intent on stripping them bare to make a mean-spirited point. I know you all feel like you're doing 'important work'. But you don't represent all people's views on the role or value of trans people in the world.

Ploppers gonna plop.

Sorry Glittery but I've defended my position on this more than 20 times. I don't have time or energy to engage with your style of thinking today. We simply don't see things in the same way.

Oh, thank God, someone who can defend their position!

Briefly, can you define 'Woman' in a way that includes me, and transwomen, but not my sons or male partner, or transmen?

Cos once we have that, I think we'll be able to work on something that can accommodate us all.

Sorry Glittery but I've defended my position on this more than 20 times. I don't have time or energy to engage with your style of thinking today. We simply don't see things in the same way.