ITV Transformation Street

but as for my mind and my interpretation of how I stand in the community I live in I am female because most of the general public only accept male or female genders

harv, if other genders were accepted more readily would you be happy to call yourself a trans woman rather than female?

I’ve heard a few people say that the issue stems from society’s idea of gender as binary (& I agree) but if gender and sex are not related then why the need for physical change? Is it because it is so difficult to be a man who is kind and nurturing and likes dresses and makeup (or whatever other ‘feminine’ traits) so easier to be yourself while presenting as female?

As a teenager I used to dress in loose trousers and baggy tops because I was so uncomfortable with my body, I think that was mainly because I was treated differently with that body (& because having periods is just shit). Do you think if men and women were treated the same that body issues would be lessened?

Apologies if these questions are too personal, feel free not to reply. I’m really interested in your opinion.

I realize that this is very personal

Gosh, 48 no one has been a bully. Someone pointed a fact. That you did not go through a menaupause. Whatever you did go through may have been horrible but it was not a menopause.

Before you made the bullying accusation you seemed a very reasonable person. A person points out your mistake and you start throwing out accusations instead of continuing in a calm debate, maybe doing a bit of googling to actually see what a menopause entails. But no, you are obviously right and we women are wrong

But we can't point out the impact of gendered socialization, because that would be mean and unladylike. A true lady sits with her legs crossed daintily at the ankles and listens quietly, and makes sure to control any facial expressions that might indicate that she thinks the person talking is indulging in a bit of verbal wanking and knows about as much about what being a woman is like as they do about particle physics.

(Only so long I can keep the twee performative femininity bollocks up for, sorry!)

The transplanted wombs thing is ghoulish. Is it not enough that poor women in some parts of India are already having their kidneys harvested? Do we really have to steal their uteri too?

👏👏👏👏👏 Sophocles

Also, I think harv's comments about wombs being transplanted into men are not only highly sinister, but also very indicative of what this whole thing is actually about.

Where are these wombs going to come from, harv?

I expect that they quite often get that appreciative audience, kittens - while being oblivious to it being a product of female socialisation.

Must be a shock to come to a forum like this where there are women who prefer not to do that. Ouch!

Italian, your posts were very lovely and supportive. I'm not having any kind of dig at you, by the way.

(Round of applause for Sophocles)

It's just so narcissistic, coming into a forum full of women and expecting us to be an appreciative audience that listens patiently and never complains or god forbid uses (gasp!) sarcasm while our experiences are being erased. And then of course there's the mandatory lecture about how we're not performing femininity properly, unlike those other nice women, they're proper ladies...

Nope, sorry, whatever minimal patience I ever may have had has long since ran out.

Nobody here bullied you, harv.

Nobody here was aggressive.

Nobody here pulled your hair out by the roots.

I explained to you what happens when a woman who has gone through menopause reads your (scientifically inaccurate and startlingly tone deaf) account of your imagined experiences of menopause. What you wrote made it clear that you do not understand the biological experiences that women have. This is not a value judgement on you. You have your own experiences. But when you gaze at women and perceive us to be the same, because you don’t listen to what our lives actually are, the effect you create is that you believe you are in a position to tell us something about what being a woman is. That's not OK, and further, it's also not OK to try to dictate what my or any woman's reaction to that appropriation ought to be.

Had you come here and said something like “I empathise with women because I feel like some of our life experiences are similar and that make me feel some solidarity”, I would think “fair enough”.

Had you read what I wrote about going through the menopause and years of fighting to get doctors to treat my gynae issues properly and written "gosh, that sounds tough. Sounds like you have had your battles to fight too. I didn't mean we'd gone through the exact same thing, sorry", then I would have also thought "fair enough".

But why you actually did was bowl in here, not make the slightest attempt to engage with the topic at hand, make it all about you and your suffering, type some rubbish about the massive difficulties of taking three months of hormones and a doctor telling you you were going through the menopause, frame the discussion as "aggression" and "bullying" when it didn't go in the direction that you wanted it and slide in some digs about "the fairer sex" in an attempt to create the impression that we are awful and unladlylike and should be ashamed of ourselves.

Here's some inside info on being a lady for you, harv.

Three months of taking hormones and six months of turmoil caused by hormones is nothing. Literally NOTHING to a woman. Many of us go through years of such things. Menarche, menstruation, birth control, pregnancy, birth, post birth, menopause - all of these can and do wreak havoc on women's hormonal profiles. And it is frequently not taken remotely seriously by medicine. So your attempt to evoke a reaction in women by telling us about how difficult it was for you will result in a hollow laugh. Because your clueless privilege tells us so much about you. It's manflu.

I am genuinely sorry that you find it so hard to leave room in the world for women's experience. I can't imagine it's a happy place for you. But I won't be guilted into shutting up about women's lives and experiences no matter how "nice" you are about it.

Ewwww, harv. Just ewww.

"I have always given all women the respect they richly deserve"

Until they say something you don't like, then it's a scolding and the naughty chair for them.

As it happens I have never supported any of the masogyny rules you have laid down even in my previous life, I have always given all women the respect they richly deserve, and hold the belief that we must learn to trust each other and support each other, be my guest to turn that around until it suits your agenda, if you wish to continue this line of thought I will be happy to speak to you again tomorrow but for now it’s time for bed, good night LADIES

48harv, we have been straight with you and you have been mendacious with us. It is not our behavior that needs review.

It's always funny watching trans women attempt to pull this kind of "I as a man approve of the behavior of this set of women, but not that set, and of course as women my approval is important to you" thing on groups of women, attempting to play us off against each other. It's such a stereotypically male thing to do that when the person doing it insists that they're female it's hard not to have a bit of a giggle.

Snap I was just about to do the same thing!

Either #3 or # 8
Here I offer the first ten for you to use as you see fit.
1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

Seriously you think that the way you are behaving is worthy of you, then shame on you,

Seriously, only a man could frame "women are not going to pretend that female biology doesn't exist" as "bullying". Male socialization is a hell of a drug.

YY. FFS.

Which rule is "proper female behavior is whatever the male person they're talking to at the time would like it to be"?

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

Earlier in the discussion I was chatting to pleasant friendly people openly and frankly and I enjoyed it immensely the last selection are the type that pulled out my hair by the roots, still I hold out hope for the majority not the aggressive radicals

Seriously, only a man could frame "women are not going to pretend that female biology doesn't exist" as "bullying". Male socialization is a hell of a drug.

Nasty wimmins being all opinionated and non-deferential! Womanhood = stereotypical femininity.

Well it appears that being a bully is not a male prerogative, what this tirade of aggression shows that there are no barriers to hatred nor is it gender stereotyped although it is sad to experience it in the fairer sex,

Or verminous, even.

"Verminoous"

Further, harv, you are a male regardless of what you fantasize and surgically modify. These are biological facts not subject to male dominance displays. The women on mumsnet expect honest engagement and will call you on this sort of "not like those other girls" manipulation.
Personally I find all radical factions of any group to be dangerous because they refuse to listen to level heads who want to slow the pace,the suffragettes in the early 20th century were different to the verminous rants of some radical groups of today that in my humble opinion drive a wedge through tolerance and diversity
Eff you very much.