ITV Transformation Street

Harv

So have I got this right? You're saying you have had to invent a female life to cover from birth until age 43?

Do you not feel able to just say that you are transwoman and have that journey recognised?

Dear datum that is correct after the final op in 1992 I wa 43 but began my journey in 1990

It's like the anime avatars. In theory it's fine to like anime, but in practice trans woman + cutesy name + anime avatar is usually a red flag for a very specific kind of person with a specific set of fetishes and a distasteful interest in very young girls

Exactly. There is no data. There is no official analysis.

But, as sure as eggs are eggs, you can take certain words, phrases and profiles (as above) and make an almost hundred percent prediction.

The same with transwomen who claim they are, at last, in middle-age, going through their longed for female 'puberty' as a result of hormones. And why shouldn't they experiment with cropped tops and fishnet stockings? Surely it's a rite of passage for any 'young girl'.

Try remaining polite, neutral and sticking to hard facts, in the face of that!

It's like the anime avatars. In theory it's fine to like anime, but in practice trans woman + cutesy name + anime avatar is usually a red flag for a very specific kind of person with a specific set of fetishes and a distasteful interest in very young girls.

I'm OK with your analysis that my language is OTT, italian. I know how I got here, and I'm comfortable with what I say and how I say it. I feel myself to be (mostly) polite but firm. I don't name call, threaten, lie, guilt-trip or misrepresent. I'm good with me - but I accept that it is your prerogative to disagree, and I'm good with that, too.

I don't think you're over-reacting ella. I think women tend to under-react to this sort of thing, because it seems unkind to object.

48harv

Did you say you transitioned in your 40s?

Dear Italiangreyhound it does seem I keep putting my foot in it, I call all my friends girls or even guys sometimes it’s a greeting that is all, as for The HRT gaff that is because when I go to see medical people I found it easier to say that than try to remember the name of the stuff I am on. Again it is not meant detrimentalally, also when you have to produce a fake life it’s beccessary to say certain things to alay suspicion, I had to make up a childhood an adolescence and a life until I was transitioned, I could hardly say I was in the cubs and boy scouts, that I have never had sex and had girlfriends to alay suspicion from family and friends. Like I said much earlier on you have to train yourself to be a good liar to live under the radar, which made my entrance to this forum so daunting,
This is not sweet talking you it’s me being honest.

But there are adult women who refer to themselves as girls.

There are, of course.

But, to me, this is where the whole thing gets very muddy indeed.

Because people, including me, do not like anecdote presented as evidence.

But there is a point which anecdotes become so overwhelming that they cannot be ignored.

It is a very specific characteristic for (some) transwomen to refer to themselves as girls. Over and over.

I suspect it is those who are autogynephiles. Because it often goes hand-in-hand with cutesy names like Tiffany.

So 'girls' as collective noun, unfortunately has a connotation that, although you can dismiss, is certainly something of a flag to me.

Pretty much. The specific thing trans women want that proves to them that they're women varies, but there's always something, and there's always the rapid switch to anger and sexist putdowns when women refuse to give it. I'm not sure that it's possible for them to relate to us as people because their happiness/mental health/whatever depends on convincing themselves that they are part of the same category we are, which means that we mustn't be allowed to say things that make it clear that that's not the case. When we do, well, rage, not-acting-like-a-woman-should, rinse and repeat. So the only way for them to remain content is for us to stop talking about female specific experiences. Which to a feminist is obviously unacceptable.

There are the exceptions, like Miranda Yardley, but there aren't very many of them, at least on social media.

@Datun it's fine I know. Actually I am sometimes more tough about males in real life. and I think on here am sometimes pegged as a man-hater.

On a forum for gay rights and trans people I was slammed a bit for my views and would very much not be seen as a nice person. I would vevseen as a hater. which I think is very far from the truth!

Ps maybe it is me who should offer to leave!

But I am not going to! See I am not so nice after all!

Italiangreyhound

@Datun I. Not sure what you mean about kid gloves. I think I try and treat everyone the same on relation to situation.

Ah. That's ok. I see the kid glove treatment all the time. It's a little embarrassing, sometimes.

It's perfectly likely that you are just a very nice person and don't change your behaviour depending on if you are talking to men or women.

Plenty of women do, but of course not everyone.

It wasn't meant as an insult.

@ellaoldie I am here for you if you want to chat privately. I totally get it.

But there are adult women who refer to themselves as girls.

is the Paris Lees style "being sexually harassed is so validating" crap.

Well yes. And I know you can't tar all transwomen with the same brush.

But, in the language of spectrums (!) it's pass and parcel of the same thing. Validation.

Lee's validation comes in the form of sexual harassment that is abhorrent to women.

Doubly so, because they maintain that, as they are a woman, they are representing women. And therefore legitimising sexist nonsense as 'things women say'.

Infuriating.

harvs validation comes from calling what is happening to them by female specific terms.

Perhaps no where near as offensive as Lees, but exactly the same concept.

"And then the complaint that we are not ladylike enough. The sarky 'LADIES', attempting to undermine women based on the reinforcement of gender stereotypes. To me, it appears almost involuntary. The product of male socialisation. The go-to insult. That not only, does not insult feminists, it merely underpins what they say. "

The "well you're not feminine enough and I do not approve, so there!" doesn't insult me, it embarrasses the person saying it. Or at least it should, and it makes it highly unlikely that I'll take anything they say after that seriously.

@Datun I. Not sure what you mean about kid gloves. I think I try and treat everyone the same on relation to situation.

So on an anonymous forum where I don't really know people I'd be or try to be kid gloves for all.

Maybe I am a bit cautious in real life too! But I am not sure how to be otherwise!

@SophoclesTheFox it's ok to disagree with me, I rather thought you would. I was not singling you out. I felt the weight of responses and language used was ott. Plus the apology sounded sincere. It could be accepted or not. I do get where you are coming from.I honestly do.

harv I would like you to stay on the forum as I really do think it’s important both ‘sides’ speak to each other.
I find it interesting that you mention the idea that ‘gender identity’ exists before birth, I was wondering if you could expand on that?

In the spirit of transparency I want to just say why I think lots of women (ie me) get upset when this is inferred. Feminists have literally been fighting against gender identity for hundreds of years, when we infer that gender identity is innate we are saying that gender therefore gender roles are natural, that women were born to do the caring roles and be pretty and men were born to be the breadwinner and leaders. We see gender as an oppressive structure created by the patriarchy to keep everyone in their place. We abhor gender and wish to abolish it completely so men and women can be free to be individuals with personalities rather than ‘men’ and ‘women’.

It’s very difficult for me to not get prickly when I hear talk of gender identity but I must learn to listen and I’d love it if you can please put your side forward.

Thank you

Italiangreyhound, Thank you for this. I think this makes me so angry because i've found both experiences very isolating and the only solace has been knowing that, while the people around me can't understand, millions of women around the world and going back through the centuries have shared those experiences and survived them without mental collapse. That men who have no CONCEPTION of what these experiences mean on any level: individually, politically or culturally are now claiming them as their own seems horrifying to me to the point I can barely contain myself. They want to take everything. It's unbelievable.
Maybe I'm overreacting. ...
The "Morning Girls" comment has just about finished me off..

I haven't hit menopause yet, but my personal "oh no you don't" issue in regards to trans women appropriating female experiences is the Paris Lees style "being sexually harassed is so validating" crap. Tell that to any girl for whom it started when she was still in primary school.

• Inaccurate

@48harv welcome back. You are not causing offence to me. please stay.

(Maybe don't call us girls, another minefield may errupt!)

48harv

You might feel that we are deliberately picking apart your posts. But it's incredibly important.

Women are losing the language to describe their reality.

HRT is not something that men have. You're not replacing hormones that you have lost.

Just because it has the words hormones in it, doesn't mean that you can appropriate a term that is applied specifically to women.

However comforting that might be to your feelings.

It's accurate and offensive.

If you want to have a discussion about hormones and share some experiences that may or may not overlap, the compromise is you don't call it HRT, and our compromise is that we share. If you want us to.

( I don't mean specifically on this thread, just generally).

"It often invokes a knee jerk appreciative response. I can't tell you how many times I have seen women using kid gloves with transwomen. Far more than they would with a woman. "

See, this is the thing, I would neither give other woman that kid glove treatment nor expect them to give it to me. That specific sort of softly softly, be very careful of the person's feelings, phrase things in the most indirect way so you avoid offending them behavior pattern...it's how women are socialized to treat men. But exaggerated, because this particular group of male people have been framed as the most oppressed and vulnerable group of all. But by treating them like that and trying to make other women doing the same you're showing that you don't actually think they're women. Because women don't treat other women that way.

I know that the women doing this are mostly just trying to be nice and are acting the way they've been socialized to, but it's frustrating when you've seen the pattern a hundred times before and can already see what's coming.

It's fine for individual women to choose to coddle trans women if they want to, but if there's an expectation that other women are required to do the same then I am going to push back against that because it's not reasonable and it's not fair.

Your analysis is spot on, as ever, datun.

@AngryAttackKittens I've no desire to make women ladylike. Women can point out things all they like. I've no desire to silence anyone. I just see some things as presented in a counter productive way. And of course that too is a choice. But I do feel 48 layer sarcastic comments came as a result of the way some posters were posting. And it all muddied the water to me.