I'm not beautiful...is that ok?

@Bellamuerte that only works if you agree that not having grey hair is better than having grey hair! Well-dressed is subjective, as are haircuts. Nothing particularly wrong with being a bit overweight, although clearly it's better for your health to be fit and not very overweight.

Dd2 completely eschews femininity. It makes me a little sad,

Why does it make you feel sad? Mine does also- but I feel extraordinarily proud of her for being true to herself and not following the crowd. The last thing i’d feel is sad.

*And who amongst us doesn't feel secretly great given a compliment?

You look great today, have you don't something with your hair?

That's a gorgeous jacket , the colour really suits you, your whole face looks glowing.

Is that a new lipstick, you really suit it, you look really pretty*

Actually, I don’t. And each one of those comments refers to something I have done or changed- implying that my natural self isn’t “good enough”- I’m not pretty without lipstick, or my hair yesterday was terrible...I’d take comments like that as insults, personally. Say you like my jacket, fine, but don’t infer I have improved myself with external trappings.

I'm not beautiful either. I'm quirky and interesting looking. There's a lot to be said for being your best self though - clean and well dressed, teeth sorted by a dentist, fit and not overweight, dye grey hair if necessary and get a haircut, etc. You don't have to be beautiful to make an effort to be your best self.

And who amongst us doesn't feel secretly great given a compliment?

You look great today, have you don't something with your hair?

That's a gorgeous jacket , the colour really suits you, your whole face looks glowing.

Is that a new lipstick, you really suit it, you look really pretty.

Why would denying your own child that be something that you consider doing? As said, it's not a case that's all you compliment, but why ignore their appearance and only praise their intelligence or something.

No one can really think the person who is brought up like this will grow up to have huge self esteem about their level of attractiveness, and no human being goes through their teens and twenties thinking their attractiveness is unimportant and all that matters is their mum and dad love them.

Self esteem doesn’t come from praise.

As someone else said, it comes from trust.

When people trust in you, your choices, your abilities their actions are proving that you have good qualities.

Praise is nice and all, but it’s part of building a relationship between two people, not self esteem.

And telling a woman “but you are beautiful” is just reinforcing the idea that looks are what she should be aiming for.

That was to Bluntness

Nope. Real self esteem is about knowing that I am a valuable, loveable human being even if I'm not particularly clever, beautiful, or outstandingly good at anything compared to everyone else.

Maybe instead of focusing on the feminist side of this, you should address the core problem -your poor self esteem.

But poor self esteem amongst many women and girls is down to the ever present societal message that they aren’t pretty enough.

So it IS a feminist issue.

Self esteem comes from knowing from an early age that you are valued and loved, not from knowing or believing that you are pretty. Prettiness only comes into it if a child has been given a message that her prettiness (or lack of it) is the reason she is valued and loved (or considered less valuable and loveable)

This is a very one dimensional view and due to that not accurate. Why? Because you can be valued and loved for who you are, and also know and be told you are clever, smart, beautiful, kind and funny.

It is not if you're pretty that's why you're loved. End of. This is very wrong. Who tells their child I only love you because you're pretty? You'd have to be very warped indeed.

You are loved for who you are, but being told your smart, clever, beautiful, kind and acknowledging your child's positive attributes is a huge self esteem boost for anyone.

When you look at your child op, do you not think she is beautiful?

Self esteem comes from knowing from an early age that you are valued and loved, not from knowing or believing that you are pretty.

Prettiness only comes into it if a child has been given a message that her prettiness (or lack of it) is the reason she is valued and loved (or considered less valuable and loveable). This is not, in my view, an OK thing to do to a child.

On the one hand I would want to praise her appearance to try and help her self esteem

Praise:

kind, sparky, determined, generous, courageous, reliable, funny, hard-working, resourceful, original...

All these words are possibly even more important than 'beautiful' in developing self-esteem. But even more important is that praise does not develop self-esteem. Appreciation and trust do that.

I am fat and saggy. Even when I was fit and lean I struggled with my self-image, as I have always had broad shoulders, wide hands and feet, solid wrists and ankles, and no waist to speak of.

I have a very slender teenaged dd. She recently found some of my old clothes at my parents' house, and loves wearing them. I look at dd and realise that that was me 30+ years ago. I must have been as slender as she is! But at the time I could not get past the fact that I was neither waif-like, nor curvaceous. All those years I thought I was fat, when I never was.

It's true that being told "But you are beautiful!" doesn't really help. I've rarely been told that I am beautiful, and then only if I've made a special effort or have lost weight. Which just reinforces the unhelpful belief that I'm not, in my ordinary self, worth noticing.

Why am I fat? Because I self-medicate with food.

Why am I comfortable in my now-decrepit body? Because I have recognised this. And because I have released myself from feeling guilty about it. And because I have made the conscious effort to cherish and value myself, rather than constantly seek affirmation from outside. Not that I always succeed! But that's ok, too.

I do think you have a skewed and warped view op. You state we see female beauty as the be all and end all. My view is it's one of many qualities in a human. Just like hermione, where all her other qualities are put first, and the looks thing is no more than a mere mention in a small scene in very many movies. So it's not first and foremost is it?

No one is disputing it's not valued. What's being disputed is your view it's the be all and end all.

With regards to your daughter, women who grow up with parents who never ever tell them they look good, praise them in this manner tend to have very very low self esteem. "No one told me I was pretty growing up". Kids who are brought up like this think it's not mentioned because something is wrong with them. They do not live in isolation and understand from an early age the value of looks in society "aren't you a handsome boy" and other qualities " aren't you a clever girl". Refusing to mention your child's appearance and compliment it will probably damage their self esteem.

And why don't we tell people they are unattractive? Because few people are. As a pp said. Most people have attractive qualities. I know very many people due to the size of the org I work for and I would not class one of those as unattractive. Unattractive usually exists when someone lacks self confidence, is negative and bitter, this is what's perceived as unattractive.

I do think you've got a hang up here that could do with some councilling, because what you're posting isn't healthy. And for your kids sake, you need to be able to heal yourself on this.

Did you experiment with different looks as a teen OP?

Have you ever been a goth, or barbie-like in pastels pinks and blues?

I think the more you experiment with this stuff the more you realise people react to the ‘show’ of how you present, rather than some kind of innate unchanagable value of appearance judged against an external scale.

I think that most people have attractive qualities.
Qualities i would say were beautiful. Its hard to see in yourself tho isnt it? I think you get so used to your own appearance and its so caught up in your mood and experiences that really you have no idea how you appear. Ive known some incredibly traditionally beautiful women with rock bottom self esteem.

I had very low self esteem as a child and a lot f it centred on appearance.
I remember my mother was always saying how beautiful I was and trying to dress me up in clothes i was uncomfortable in and do my hair etc etc.... at the time I thought she was making fun of me for being awkward and dumpy (she was very slender and elegant) But now i look back on it ive realised that thats genuinely what she thought and also that she was trying to be nice to me because those were the things that she valued so she thought it was a nice compliment to try and dress me up etc.... Ive realised this in part because of how I feel when i look at my son... I honestly think he is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen, he takes my breath away with his curls and his big eyes.... and I know maybe its just love and other people wont see it, like i think my husband is the most attractive man in the world but some other women are just like 'meh' about him. That strength of feeling about my sons appearance makes me realise that beauty doesnt actually have that much to do with appearance if you see what i mean?

So now i see that even though i felt dumpy and awkward its very possible that my mother genuinely did think i was gorgeous.
And it follows on the all the people who care about you probably do like your appearance because they have some sort of love for you.
Its a cliche but beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. Its not what adverts and tv tell you it is.

As ive got older and more comfortable with who I am in general I have actually felt more attractive... even though according to all media sources id probably be considered less so (heavier, older, more tired!) but i genuinely feel so much more 'beautiful' now than I did when i was a teenager. I think its just about being happy!!

Op, do you read the daily mail? Look at the side bar of shame?

Yes a woman's looks are important. As are a mans. And the hermione moment at the ball is one in many films and Thr over whelming emphasis with that character is not her looks but her intellect.

I wonder if you're so down on your looks that you're heavily focused on everyone else's and overly sensitive.

To put it into context I for one don't think thr media focuses only on a woman's looks. I think only certain corners of the media do. If I read a business article about a female ceo, it's not focused on her beauty. If I read the daily mail side bar of shame it is.

I also don't feel it's of primary importance either, it's one of many criteria that as humans we judge other humans.. But I don't struggle with low self esteem and I'm comfortable in my own skin.

As such, I suspect your view of the world is skewed due to you're sensitivity and low self esteem. You're heavily focused on beauty and blowing it out of proportion.

The Harry Potter example is proof of this. There is no doubt or discussion to be had that all those films focus heavily on the granger characters intellect and not looks. But all you can see it the one scene where she goes to the ball...

And no I don't think it would be better to refuse to comment on my daughters looks or attractiveness. She has no "baggage" to deal with, just like I have no "baggage " to deal with. she's a sensible young woman with many positive attributes, be it attractiveness, intelligence, confidence, kindness, empathy or drive, and I will continue as a parent to ensure she has good self esteem. I will not refuse to mention her looks in the pretence that society does not place any value at all on it.

Why should I? Because you personally wish the world to stop valuing it? This will never happen. Beauty in men and women have been a value since the year dot. Simply they are not the only quality.

Should I also not mention she is intelligent or smart? In case someone who feels they are not is upset that thr world values it?

Yes I love her for her. And yes she knows that. But this will never mean I should only ever say that and refuse point blank to validate any of her other qualities be they good or bad.

"We're fed a myth that the majority of women are stunningly beautiful".

No I disagree. Few people are beautiful. Fewer still are stunning. Most of us are average.

Where do you get this from OP?

Haven't RTFT yet but my tuppence worth is that "beauty" as I understand it is entirely subjective.

I don't conform in any way to current societal expectations of feminine beauty at all ....in fact as I have reached my 30s and gained a lot more confidence in myself I have gone out of my to look less socially attractive!

I still believe myself to be beautiful and attractive- but now only to people who see past superficiality, or who actively like the dykey punk look!

I don't shave anything, except for most of my head.
Dreads.
Acne.
Dont even pluck my eyebrows.
Have a little black tache I'm quite fond of!
Wear mens clothes.
Never wear heels or dresses.
When I do wear make up its more Adam Ant than Amanda Holden.

I no longer get wolf whistled at....most men are repulsed by me and I like it like that.

But put me in a punk gig, or at a festival and I'm suddenly Angelina Jolie!

I think modern standards make women paranoid, desperate to fit in and be fund attractive by the majority of people.

Its so fucking liberating to just think "fuck it".

A good friend is constantly comparing herself to other women, it makes her miserable, and she spends a fortune on clothes and make up, she gets loads of attention but she hates it.

Another friend cheerfully admits she looks odd at best.....but to me her personality, confidence and live make her one of the most beautiful women in the world.

We need to stop measuring our worth by how people view our looks as measured against some arbitrary standard.

J-Lo is beautiful, and I can state that without it in any way affecting how I feel about myself and my self esteem. Like I said in my earlier post, there are 'beautiful' people - the J-Los of this world who are genetically blessed - and the rest of us. The rest of us will still be very very beautiful to the people who truly love us, and that is what matters.

Also depends what you think is beautiful.
I saw Jennifer Lopez on carpool with James Corden, the other day. I haven't really noticed before, how incredibly naturally beautiful she is. Outstandingly so.

But most of us aren't J-Lo, are we?

I agree with some of your feminist points. ie number 2.

But this is not really a problem. The problem is that you have low self esteem.

I don't have low self esteem. I am not pretty. Certainly not beautiful. But I scrub up ok. When I get dressed up to go to a friends 40th, I look nice. I know this. Every day I wear a bit of make up and wear clothes that flatter my figure, even though my figure isn't fabulous, its ok.

None of this bothers me at all. I'm quite accepting of this. Most people aren't beautiful. Most of the mums in the playground (say 500 of them) when I go and pick up ds2 later, are distinctly average. Few stand out.

So why does this bother you?

Maybe instead of focusing on the feminist side of this, you should address the core problem -your poor self esteem.