I'm not beautiful...is that ok?

reallyanotherone - it makes me a little sad that dd2 completely eschews anything feminine because it feels as though she values the masculine more. I find it interesting in myself (in that at her age I wore doc martens and a combat jacket) to reflect that I have come to terms with femininity as I have got older. I do winder if it is linked to not feeling able to meet the high standards that society attaches to feminine value (you have to be beautiful, hairless of body, flawless of complexion, wear make up, have a narrow waist, wider hips and preferably an impressive bust, clad in stylish girly clothes), and recognizing that masculinity and masculine traits (including appearance) are taken far more seriously.
I know I was pissed that I wasn’t taken as seriously or allowed to do as much as boys when I was a teenage girl, and so I used my appearance alongside my actions to prove I was equally was worthy - not some girly in frippery that didn’t need to be taken seriously.
This is what makes me sad. Appearance shouldn’t matter. But it does. I want dd2 to realize that she is worthy as s female. And I want all girls and women to be valued whether they confirm to patriarchal standards of beauty or not. It makes me sad that girls rebel against all aspects of femininity because they feel like they don’t match up to the standards that society sets.

But Dodo - the point is, we aren't seeing jowly features and potato nose. We are seeing nice Hair, a nice figure, a nice smile, nice ankles. YOU are seeing the negative

Genuinely - I was at work earlier and looking at my team of 20. I honestly think they're all
Lovely looking and they couldn't be more different from each other. Different noses, faces, bodies, hair. All different, all lovely.

Here's a negative description of me. I'm fat, I'm lumpy and wobbly, my hair almost always isn't styled, I have acne, I have a huge nose, I have big feet.

I'm still pretty, I think I am, DH thinks I am, mum thinks I am.

"Unattractive" features don't make you ugly.

When I was a teenager I thought I was ugly and fat - partly because a few people (including my parents) told me I was and it stuck. When I got together with DH he told me (and still tells me) everyday how beautiful and sexy he thinks I am. After a while that started to stick. Now I truly am happy with what I see in the mirror - not because he think so mind you but because I got knocked out of that mindset of putting myself down all the time. I'm actually not conventionally pretty and I'm 4 stone overweight but I never look in the mirror and think I look bad. I either think nothing at all (usual) or I look ok/great depending on my mood. I think it's almost a habit to put yourself down.

I look like my dad, right down to the beetling brow.

It's quite a good look on an elderly man, not so much on a mid-40s woman. But hey, I mostly work online, so possibly my colleagues all think I'm stunning.

Nah, I'm not sure 'jowly features and nose like a potato' have ever been a Beauty Ideal in any culture, Reallyanotherone, though it's nice of you to try!

I honestly think my self esteem stems from my mother never telking me I was beautiful even though lots of people do say it to me.
But then I think am I that stupid to get so hung up about looks when I know looks arent's everything.

I agree with thr last two posts. We should all be beautiful in someone's eyes. And the very first people who should think you're beautiful is your parents. If they don't, and don't tell you, how will you ever grow to think someone else might find you beautiful?

As said previously, there are very few unattractive people. But those who are, are not unattractive due to their faces or bodies, they are unattractive due to their personality. Sour, bitter, resentful, mean. These are the unattractive amongst us, not the ones with the crooked nose or whatever. We should all find the people we love beautiful and not fall for classic stereotypes.

Thing is, all of you saying you’re plain or face like a back of a bus or whatever.

I don’t think I have ever met anyone who is truly “plain” or really is “nothing to look at”.

Firstly you have to define what is plain, what beauty is. And that can vary, between cultures- would you think stretched earlobes and fatness is beautiful? Some cultures do. Indian culture thinks pale is better. It can vary between generation- look at 40’s hourglass morphing into 60’s twiggy, 70’s fashion for thinness and long straight hair on men and women, 80’s going back to a fuller figure, short curly hair, then heroin chic and super tall models of the 90’s. Fashions for ultra pale skin, or very tanned.

Even situations- today is either the extreme of model/actress thin, boyish prepubescentness, or the implanted boobs and big butts of the “sexier” persuasion. “Normal” was lost somewhere a long time ago.

Everybody I meet, walk past, see day to day is different. They all have something to like about them. What you may see as plain may be someone elses idea of pretty. All it takes is nice eyes and a smile.

When I was younger there were a couple of occasions where men did that double take thing that meant they found me attractive. I am not stunning by a long shot, but there are people out there that think I am nice looking. There is something about me that that person is drawn to- are they wrong and everyone who doesn’t see it right? Of course not.

Looks are subjective. One persons beautiful is anothers average.

My mum always told me I was beautiful- honestly I know I've got pretty features but I've also got ones society sees as negative (I'm a massive fatty!) I genuinely don't care about that. I'm beautiful in the eyes of those who love me - that's all that matters. I'm glad my parents told me they thought I was beautiful

But the other thing mum did which I think may have made a difference - she always saw the beauty in others (everyone - not just the traditionally beautiful) now I see it too. I honestly have never met an ugly person - I sit in groups and just love to look at people -
Everyone is so unique, it's wonderful!

I used to have this on my wall when I was a teenager.

I'm plain and I'm fine with that. I have qualities that I can change about myself - kindness, patience, intellectual curiosity - but I'll never be able to alter my face. I have a lovely strong body which grew and birthed a child, and fed her for six months. A plain face and thick thighs - well, that's just genetics, it's not a reflection of my character.

I realise it's not quite what OP is getting at, but Quentin's comment upthread is one I agree with: "This is the myth that keeps so many women spending on makeup/hair etc
All the women I know look just as good without make up as with, they've just trained themselves to be used to their made up face and they think it looks better" (I sometimes see younger women at work "put their face on" first thing in the loos, and note with interest that 10 minutes later, they look effectively exactly the same as they did when they started - which is beautiful, because most young women are beautiful!)

But OP is right, there is no space for women simply to be in the way that is open to men. Even the decision to be rumpled and scruffy (my default state) is a decision for women, in a way it isn't for men. Think of John Sergeant, the BBC's former political correspondent. The way he dressed was simply him. For a woman in the same job it would automatically come with a whole load of assumptions about her motivations - dressing down to be taken as serious, refusing to play a gendered game, etc. etc. Whether we play the game of makeup and clothes signifying a certain way we want to present, or refuse to play the game, there's something at stake for women in a way there isn't for men. And women's appearance is routinely taken to be part of their worth in a way it isn't for men.

I get it, OP. I have two daughters (currently 14 and 10). I comment occasionally (positively!) on their appearance, because I don't want to look like I'm avoiding doing so, but much more often compliment them on things they have control over, and which actually matter.

I've always been average looking - not ugly, but not beautiful either. I do care about, and am interested in, my appearance - but in the context of what it says about me. So I'm not particularly interested in trying to look beautiful, but I am interested in having a style which I think represents who I am. Does that make sense?

Shove over, MrsReynolds, so I can join you on the 'good face for radio' bench.

It does save a lot of angst about 'losing your looks' if no one ever considered you pretty/beautiful/handsome/striking in the first place.

Clean, clothed, comfortable - that'll do.

I genuinely think most of us feel that we’re not as attractive as we should be and lack confidence (and I say that as someone who is constantly hit on by men)! How we feel in ourselves doesn’t reflect the reality, it reflects our self esteem.

Who's happier, someone who thinks they're beautiful, or someone who doesn't care whether they're beautiful or not?

I think facial physical beauty is about bone structure. I don't know anything about different cultures' ideals of beauty but I do think there is something innately appealing about symmetry and certain proportions.

Other things are far more important than beauty. But beauty does influence people. It thus has power. And if you are not beautiful, you do not have that particular power. Though you may have many others!

Perhaps beauty is a double edged sword. It may influence your life hugely but there is no guarantee it will be, overall, for the best. Marilyn Monroe got into films because she was beautiful. She was insecure and unhappy though and probably died much younger than she would have had she not been in that industry.

I think women look their best when they're talking about something they're really interested in, looking at someone they love, laughing like a drain or doing something they've got nailed

And men for that matter

I never mentioned make up. But not being spotty, fat and with squint, yellowing teeth is always going to be considered more beautiful than being spotty, fat and with squint yellowing teeth.

And those are all things that can ameliorated with time/money/effort. And for both sexes, since you mentioned it.

*Most of us could be beautiful if we were prepared to do this. I’m not so I’ll just amble along with my low maintenance hair, flabby bits and dull skin, prioritising things that do matter to me.

This is the myth that keeps so many women spending on makeup/hair etc
All the women I know look just as good without make up as with, they've just trained themselves to be used to their made up face and they think it looks better*

This!

Men don’t think they look better with make up. They don’t feel the need to hide bags or think they look ill without it. Why do women?

I think women look better with no make up.

You are never invisible if you are beautiful. Everywhere you go, people look. Honestly, they do. Oh, and lots and lots of women hate you . For no reason other than you are good looking.

Most of us could be beautiful if we were prepared to do this. I’m not so I’ll just amble along with my low maintenance hair, flabby bits and dull skin, prioritising things that do matter to me.
This is the myth that keeps so many women spending on makeup/hair etc
All the women I know look just as good without make up as with, they've just trained themselves to be used to their made up face and they think it looks better

To those who are saying they feel like this, i would like to know what difference you think it would make to your life if you were "pretty"?
I bet not very much. In which case it's totally pointless beating yourself up over whether you are or aren't attractive enough.

I've got a face like a spot welders bench
[Shrug]
I'm 45
I've made my peace with it 😁