I didn’t know we had arseholes like this “on our side”.

The moral of that thread is that if you have pent up anger, when you let it out be aware who/what you're targetting.

When you're making statements in public, have an eye on how it will look to disinterested bystanders.

GuardianLions

I'm inclined to accept that old-school transsexuals find themselves in an impossible position once they've completed a physical transition and so I've no objection to them using women's loos and all the rest of it. I may be swayed in this by dint of having a good friend who is transsexual! But I don't think any male-born person, ever, should be permitted to take affirmative action programme places or be in positions where they are representing women. And I think EA single sex exemptions should be strengthened and widely used.

And yes. I have great sympathy for the flamers, too. Everyone is raw and we all feel under siege. I don't wish they hadn't spoken at all. I just think they carried it on too long, which made for a bit of a gender critical PR disaster.

It makes me wonder where consideration ends and socialisation takes over.

Indeed, although there is the added pressure. Feminists are fighting from the disadvantaged position. We have to smile, spoonfeed, cajole, soothe, charm and delight in order to not be dismissed outright by those in power or those who prefer to bury their heads in the sand.

When we get 'too angry' it is never great PR for the cause- even though we have a fuckload to be extremely angry about.

I think if you accept the "trans dignity in the workplace" as an equally important factor in that particular incident the next logical step is that you are supposed to take some responsibility for the trans person's feelings where yours should be paramount. Perhaps Kristina didn't mean it like that but it was a clumsy tone deaf tweet IMO. Blundering, as GuardianLions said.

Twitter is a minefield

yy - I think Kristina made a mistake by trying to cover too much in so few characters. In essence, of course every person has a right to dignity and to be free of harassment and abuse... but I think that point should have been made with a bit more sensitivity - not easy in a single tweet in that context.

There are certainly many feminists who absolutely give no quarter. And I totally understand why.

If you are saturated with this misogyny on a daily basis, it's really not surprising.

I personally would have reacted differently, but then I don't know what those woman have had to put up with.

This part does worry me. How we are being inured to our own aggression.

But I blame transactivists for that as well.

Although I can be blunt, I am naturally empathetic and don't generally get personal.

But there is no doubt that I sometimes feel a sense of relief when another woman will take it a step further than I feel comfortable with. It makes me wonder where consideration ends and socialisation takes over.

Although, in this case, I didn't think that the initial post warranted that reaction. But only marginally.

Born males should never cross those lines if they have respect for women. They are not women and never will be.

This.

Yes I understand what you are saying about lurkers and the uncertain etc langcleg, but I actually don't want transsexuals in women's spaces.
I am sympathetic to the fact that born males with gender dysphoria feel the need to dress, act in certain ways, hoping to appear to be women, in order to relieve their dysphoria, but I am extremely unsympathetic if they also feel entitled to enter women's spaces for validation as part of that relief.
Born males should never cross those lines if they have respect for women. They are not women and never will be.

I am not keen on the level of aggression in some of theose tweets- because of the way it looks. But the pain is real. It never looks pretty when people demonstrate pain. So I have sympathy for the aggressive women outraged as much as the blundering flamee.

There are a lot of feminists - particularly lesbian feminists, who feel under siege by boundary-violating males. It is profoundly irritating if someone comments in a kind of detached manner that 'both sides' need understanding/dignity.

YY. Twitter is a minefield. I do think Kristina got jumped on. But I can see why it happened.

I thought it was highly unnecessary. I think a couple of women had misunderstood what Kristina was saying and then doubled down on their crossness rather than accept they had.

I understand that some feminists will never accept even post-SRS transsexuals into women's spaces. And I support their right to argue for that, even though I personally don't have any issue with transsexuals getting GRCs and being accepted into most women's spaces, provided the cross-dressers are kept out and single sex exemptions strengthened.

And I also accept feelings are running high because of the current situation and women feel as though they can't give any more inches because so many miles have been taken by the insatiable TRAs.

But I wish the women giving Kristina a hard time had just said their piece briefly and disengaged. I've seen it said on here that we're writing for lurkers who aren't brave enough yet to join the fray. Same goes for Twitter. And I really did cringe at some of the stuff that was said to Kristina, who is as strong a voice in support of gender critical feminism as any trans person could be.

I think Kristina blundered onto a minefield there. I don't think it was appropriate to speak of trans 'dignity at work' in that context - it looks like a minimisation of that dodgy TIM gynae misogynist who should look to another area of employment (ie- not work with women in a vulnerable state).

There are a lot of feminists - particularly lesbian feminists, who feel under siege by boundary-violating males. It is profoundly irritating if someone comments in a kind of detached manner that 'both sides' need understanding/dignity.

Its obvious the TIM gynae is a AGP gaslighting, boundary-violating pervert and Kristina should have called that out if Kristina is really an ally of women.

There's a lot of pain out there, and born males should think before they tweet about women's indignities, just as, for example, white people should think about tweeting about the indignities of POCs or able-bodied people tweet about the indignities of disabled people, etc, etc, etc. If you don't think before you tweet in this way - prepare to get flamed!

I am not justifying flaming Kristina, just that I know this is to be expected when blundering into a minefield spouting daft, ignorant, 'reasonable sounding' false equivalence at a point of pain for an oppressed group, when you belong to the oppressor class.

I agree OP. Some pretty nasty unnecessary aggression in the tweets to Kristina. Does us no favours whatsoever.

That's not exactly abuse though is it? No one is threatening them or being abusive. I thought it was going to be threats of violence and aggressive attacks. Several people, perhaps deliberately, didn't get what they were saying but there was plenty of support in response.