Ok so someone educate me about neo vaginas **Title edited by MNHQ at the OP's request**

Rachel40s - thank you very much for contributing! Very decent of you. And glad to hear that physical transition alleviated the dysphoria.

FloraFox

I must have read similar accounts to you, because I have concluded the same.

Also

Puberty Blockers - I honestly don't know. I can see both arguments.

This worries me from a post op adult, who claims 'better than ever' sexual function.

As far as I know, the depth of the neovagina is dictated by the length of the penis being inverted?

So a kid on hormone blockers will have a tiny penis/no-depth vagina?

And if Jazz Jennings is an example, practically zero libido and sexual function.

How can an adult who advocates the joys of surgery from a fully formed set of genitalia, even think of supporting something leading to such a loss in children?

It is childbirth x2 that provided the experience to recognize the lie in what the doctors and trans advocates are saying.

Given your nonsensical understanding of development of sexual organs

I'm not a scientist, so when someone has conviction, I tend to go with it.

(But I did wonder over the continual use of the word prostrate.)

Well you live and learn. Fascinating.

Sorry Rachel40s talking about you like you are a specimen! You are the third transwoman in the last couple of days. (The other two on chat). But this conversation is far, far more illuminating and candid.

I do swerve between wondering if there is a way of making a distinction between people like you and the fetishists and just wanting to eliminate all transwomen from female spaces.

I suppose its because it doesn't come down to individuals. It never has. It's not personal.

But it's all very informative. And that cannot be a bad thing.

So I approached it from the other way - asked other women about their experiences before revealing mine. Could I be applying Self-Serving bias to what they were saying? Possibly, but I don't think so.

TBH that gives your statement less weight than if you had gone first. Given your nonsensical understanding of development of sexual organs, I'm not terribly impressed by your claim to have a "Professional Scientific background" (not a proper noun let me guess IT or engineering? )

AvtarRamKaur - Puberty blockers/Cross sex hormones. - Cross-sex hormones under 18 - no way. That's the easy one for me to answer. Puberty Blockers - I honestly don't know. I can see both arguments. What I do know is that I'd rather leave it to medically qualified professional healthcare workers than the likes of Stone-sodding-Wall.

QuentinSummers - In a natal woman the urethra is between the clitoris and vagina - To be honest, I've never actually had a good "rummage" since having had surgery! I always assumed it was at the bottom, as that's where urine dribbles out when I pee (usually - unless I'm in a rush, then it can be all over the bloody place). However, even in my case, it's where it is in the pictures on the internet (I'm soooo not at work right now - Googling that).

FloraFox - I'm sure your female friends were keen to validate your feelings. Is it? Is that what you're sure of? Well - I'm of a Professional Scientific background and for me to have revealed my feelings first could well have put Confirmation Bias on others' replies. So I approached it from the other way - asked other women about their experiences before revealing mine. Could I be applying Self-Serving bias to what they were saying? Possibly, but I don't think so.

PricklyBall - part of the experience is uterine contractions, which of course are lost with hysterectomy - Yes. My vagina is very similar to that of a post-hysterectomy female. "A total hysterectomy is surgical removal of both the body of the uterus and the cervix. During a total hysterectomy, a surgeon cuts into the top of the vagina around the cervix, creating a hole in the top of the vagina. The gynecologist then pulls the edges of the remaining tissue together, and sutures the top of the vagina shut, making the vagina into a shortened, closed pocket." [Not a particularly good Ref Here ]

Datun - How can you have an orgasm in other parts of your body when you have had nothing added? - Erm - I have had Testosterone removed and Estrogen added. That makes lots things feel very different. One thing I did expect after surgery was to be able to "identify" which bits of skin belonged to "what" before. However, I can't. It just feels like my vagina/labia/whatever. I guess that's part of no longer having GID. That in itself is a new feeling for me!

Also the pelvic floor muscles makes the vagina contract. - Absolutely. Same for me! That's what used to hurt so damn much when I first started Dilating. I had to push a muscle aside that hadn't moved in years! I still do my Pelvic Floor exercises. Next time I dilate (probably tomorrow), I'll see if I can apply any "grip" to the dilator using my pelvic floor muscles (never tried this).

Please be careful to note that I tried to qualify "whole body" when speaking about post-op orgasm - I described "whole body" as about my chest to my knees - not my eyebrows to my toes (I bloody wish ). Compared to "before", that's pretty damn whole body to me. I'll try to note it down next time I get my vibraty-friend out! See?? See what sacrifices I'm prepared to make in the name of research??

Datun - An inverted penis isn't a clitoris. - Exactly. A Trans Neo-vagina isn't a Vagina (I may change that view only after I have a period or push a baby I've grown myself out of it - until then, don't hold your breath). It's the best approximation I'll be able to ever have. I can only describe how I experience things (orgasm or otherwise) and try to objectively compare it to others. But even that is for reference only. I'm pretty happy with my body (again - still a new feeling for me).

I'm saying that if you are a man who orgasms in a certain way, and you rearrange your genitals surgically, where are the extra bits to produce an orgasm that a woman would have? - That's a really good point. Things are certainly different. As mentioned before, male orgasms are based around the ejaculation of semen from the tip of the penis. I no longer have any of that. I think it must come from nerve layout combined with hormones. The "control group" here could be male eunuchs, who don't have estrogen, etc. Unfortunately, it's not likely to be possible to find some to ask. Awesome PhD thesis, though!

QuentinSummers - I agree. However, I'm not in a position to speak for/about Trans Men, although I do think their input would be interesting. Much tougher, surgically.

Terrylene - not quite right about the testosterone. Most of it comes from the ovaries. - Oooh - thanks you for that! Excellent! That explains why my Testosterone levels are right at the lowest end for a natal female. I don't have ovaries, nor do I have testicles either. I'm running on Adrenal Testosterone only, which is why it's so low. (Last thing i'm going to do is start taking testosterone suppliments - sod that). You are quite right - Testosterone is responsible for pretty much ALL drive - not just Sex Drive. That's why Trans need careful and professional management of hormone therapy to avoid slipping into depression and other mental health disorders. Damn - did I just piss all over TRA's "rights" to circumvent the medical process and self-medicate again. Bad Rachel!!

QuentinSummers - come back and talk to us! - Aww - thank you. I don't log in that much, but I'm around. Intelligent debate and maybe the possibility of working something out together to stop the worrying eradication of women and women's safety. I'm directly affected by women's safety, too!

Last word to Prickly:
just to get on quietly with their own life. - Yes. Thank you. And we were trying to quietly get on with our own lives until all this shit started kicking up from the TRAs. Fetishists wanting "women's rights". Blokes with erect penises being able to waltz around women's changing rooms (Baaarff). Transsexuals (generally) were trying to "blend in" as much as possible. Anything which accentuates the disparity between our Birth Sex and our Acquired Gender was absolutely horrific to us - that's what Gender Dysphoria IS! What we have now is unfathomable to me, yet very dangerous for so many.

Anyway - keep safe, everyone. Keep talking. xx

@rachel40 come back and talk to us! It's nice to hear from someone on the other side so to speak

And the clitoris extends way up inside. Is it the same in a post op man?

If they use the corpus cavernosum (the two shafts in the penis) around where the new vagina is, then it will be as similar as they can make it. Men have most of the same muscles as women only differently arranged, so maybe there is enough contraction in the perineum (they have muscles around the penis which may be analogous to the ones around the vagina). It probably depends on the surgeon.

I think men are quite capable of a more 'whole body' orgasm. I think Rachel has it - they are more fixated on the "emptying his nuts through his penis". It has taken over 30 years, but I am working on it with DH

Rachel is not quite right about the testosterone. Most of it comes from the ovaries. It continues to some extent after menopause, but it can be a big problem for some women who have had oophorectomies. Loss can dampen (or kill) your libido and reduce energy and zest. It can be difficult to get it prescribed and there is not a preparation available at the moment that is licensed for women - they have to use small amounts of the stuff prescribed for men and it usually needs advice from a consultant who is interested. It is not easy as a lot of GPs now know little about HRT for menopause after the publicity surrounding millennium studies resulted in a 66% drop in use - it is still considered dangerous by many. Some women with natural menopause need testosterone too. Some is made in the adrenals if you have enough oestrogen.

datun I can believe that essentially having the penis tissue stimulated from the inside rather than the outside could produce a different sensation of orgasm. Who knows?
It is sad though that SRS is discussed mainly in terms if outcomes from MTF surgery where is sounds like FTM surgery has more significant negative effects on orgasm.
It's a bit like hormones too - female hormones are tolerated better by males than vice versa.
But the trans experience is lumped together and so it's assumed the treatment that works for males with gender dysphoria will also work for females.

Like most fields of medicine in fact

Sparkly cankles sounds like oxygen deprivation to me. I have COPD so I know from sparkly.

I'm not saying that women don't have orgasms in different ways.

I'm saying that if you are a man who orgasms in a certain way, and you rearrange your genitals surgically, where are the extra bits to produce an orgasm that a woman would have?

A woman orgasms from the clitoris. I agree, you don't even have to touch it, but that's where it happens.

An inverted penis isn't a clitoris.

I once had an orgasm just from nipple stimulation. DH thought he was some kind of sex God
My orgasms are not a whole body affair however. I like the sound of sparkly cankles!

Well, (apologies, probably TMI) weirdly I get a kind of pins-and-needles, sparkly feeling all the way round my lower legs ("cankles", for the DM readers on the thread) during orgasm, and I have friends who report they can orgasm from nipple stimulation alone (again, personally, I have the most un-erogenous breasts ever, they do nothing for me), so I'm prepared to accept human sexual response is a weird, massively varied and individual thing.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would imagine that when it comes to "full body" orgasms in a transwoman, it may have a lot to do with expectation rather than physiology, but if that works for them, fair enough. I have no beef with how they lead their lives, conceptualise their own experience or report their own experiences, so long as it doesn't impinge on my space or come with a requirement that I reconceptualize my experience to validate them - and if I'm reading Rachel's post right, she's in the category of what one might call "traditional" transwoman who don't want to impinge on women's space, just to get on quietly with their own life.

Anyway, apologies for the sparkly cankles revelation. I reckon that's even weirder than erotic dreams about George Osborne.

I don't understand the full body orgasm thing either.

How can you have an orgasm in other parts of your body when you have had nothing added?

You still have all the same 'parts' as before.

Also the pelvic floor muscles makes the vagina contract.

And the clitoris extends way up inside. Is it the same in a post op man?

Confused now.

No, I think the "whole body" thing (as a kind of imperfect metaphor) makes a bit of senses. I mentioned upthread that I'd read a pdf about FtM surgery, which was very (chillingly) explicit about the loss of orgasmic function at each stage in the process. Female orgasms are very individual of course, but for many women, part of the experience is uterine contractions, which of course are lost with hysterectomy. For most women, there are vaginal contractions, which are lost with surgery to close the vagina. However, these are all very physiological responses, and appear to depend on having a full female reproductive system. Having said that, orgasms are undoubtedly also a psychological phenomenon, so to some extent what you expect is what you get.

In the other direction, I've read FtM say that even without "bottom surgery" under the influence of testosterone, their orgasms became much more tightly focused on the clitoris, much more short lived and explosive.

much more of a whole-body thing. Kind of goes from my chest down to my knees

sounds a bit "When Harry Met Sally" to me but I'm sure your female friends were keen to validate your feelings.

The tip of the penis started out as a clitoris anyway
we all started out as female anyway, so putting things back how they were isn't such a big deal
The scrotal sack has a "seam" down it where it used to be labia

This is utterly false. Both penis and clitoris are undifferentiated in an early foetus but this does not mean the penis "started out" as a clitoris that enlarged to become a penis. Both started out as cells that then developed into different things. Nothing was put back as your cells would never have developed into a clitoris or female reproductive system. A vagina is part of a complex reproductive system. You have a surgical cavity - a blind fistula.

That might sound harsh to you. I don't have a problem with you believing what you need to believe to justify what you have done but you can't promulgate this nonsense to other people unchallenged.

Thanks Rachel, that's very informative. I am glad to hear that in your case surgery has alleviated your dysphoria and enabled you to lead a much more comfortable life. And also that everything "works" fine! Also, speaking personally, your acceptance that you started out male, and will stay that way chromosomally is very honest and refreshing.

Oh my.

Not sure what I should have expected when I opened this thread, but...um...there it all is.

Thanks Rachel. In a natal woman the urethra is between the clitoris and vagina - it sounds like it might be in a slightly different place for you?

@Rachel40s thank you for sharing such intimate information. What are your thoughts on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for young teens/children?

Perhaps I can offer a genuine insight into this - and give real life, objective responses to the points raised here. I'm MtF post-op Trans and I've had a very successful result. Upon having my first Speculum examination by my (female) GP, she remarked how impressive the result was. Things can go extremely well, and I'm very grateful for the wonderful result I have. I've read through the 6 pages of this thread and I'll try to answer as many of the point raised as I can remember (Get a Brucy-bonus for the Cuddly Toy???). I know this surgery is a) complicated and b) fascinating (don't even get me started on Caitlyn Fucking Jenner and Piers Morgan). Anyway - here goes (and if anyone wants to know more or I've missed something, just ask).

• Can TW orgasm? Trans Women can most certainly orgasm! It feels very different! Now (for me) it's much more of a whole-body thing. Kind of goes from my chest down to my knees. A male orgasm is pretty much entirely about emptying his nuts through his penis. When describing Orgasms as a Post-Op to my natal-female friends, they very much agree that's how it feels to them. Who the hell knows what anyone else feels, but it seems pretty close!
• How can Trans Women Orgasm? The tip if the penis is used to create a "clitoris". The Prudendal Nerve[1] is present in both male and female anatomy. Nerve layout is replicated as closely as possible in MtF surgery. The tip of the penis started out as a clitoris anyway, before the "Y" Chromosome in a male fetus caused testis development and enlargement of the clitoris to become a penis[2]. This is why MtF surgery can work so well - we all started out as female anyway, so putting things back how they were isn't such a big deal. The scrotal sack has a "seam" down it where it used to be labia, but they fused in the male fetus. Going back to them being (inner and outer) labia is not such a biggie.
• Do TW urinate out of their vagina? Well, I sure as hell don't! I have a perfectly satisfactory urethra in the usual place at the bottom of the vagins; just outside - same as lots of women.
• Do TW ejaculate / Is the Prostate left in place? There is no ejaculation at orgasm. The vast majority of the semen of a man is seminel fluid produced by the prostrate, but also contains sperm produced by the testicles. The testicles are removed but the prostrate remains - it's too invasive to remove it. However, in the absence of Testosterone, the protrate shrinks to virtually nothing, and produces no seminel fluid (not in my case, anyway). Only Testosterone produced by the Adrenal Gland remains (same as natal women).
• And how is the neo vagina lubricated? Some TW do get a small amount of clear seminal fliud from the prostrate that lubricates the vagina upon arousal. Most use KY (other brands are available)!
• IrkThePurist - It also needs to be dilated for several hours a day, or it will self heal - close up; Many women can climax from vaginal penetration; Needs to be cleaned every day Dilation for 20 minutes, 3-times a day is only required for 12 weeks after surgery. Not "several hours a day". Also, it doesn't "self-heal" if you don't dilate, although not dilating after surgery can lead to loss of depth. After about 12 weeks, dilating once a week or so for 20 minutes is enough to keep all internal muscles flexible enough to accommodate an erect penis. Many Trans Women can climax from vaginal penetration. Doesn't need to be cleaned every day (only during healing after surgery), though basic intimate hygiene (same as any woman) is necessary. I personally have one friend who, through traumatic childbirth, had to have a vaginal reconstruction and now needs to dilate for exactly the same reasons as I do.
• Datun - Feeding the fetish by growing breasts and being more soft and curvy, whilst retaining your man penis in order to get aroused by it all. - Abso-fucking-lutely! You hit TRA the nail right on the head there! Perfectly put!! How much "Gender Dysphoria" can someone claiming to be a "Trans Woman" actually be feeling if they are also happy to keep their fucking (fully-functional) cock? I don't want to be Trans - it's horrible. Those idiots who are just playing dress-up have no idea what acute Gender Dysphoria is actually like. It's horrific. It's nothing to be "proud" of. All Transitioning offers is a series of social and medical invterventions to relieve the symptoms of Gender Dysphoria - there is no "Sex Change" (go on - test my Chromosomes!!!!). I think there are an awful lot of Trans (of various guises) who believe that Transition is either a literal change into becoming a woman, or believe it's not even necessary to transition to female (in order to be a woman). I struggle to lower myself to "logic" that dumb.

Right - I'm going to leave it there, as it's already rather a long post and I don't want to hog this thread. If anyone wants further info/answers - please ask. I'm certainly not a nutter/snowflake nor am I delusional, so I won't hurl insults/threats at (generally) women who are quite legitimately asking about this. Maybe having information (from both sides of opinion) is helpful to all of us in presenting balanced, logical arguments against the increasingly crazy and dangerous demands of the TRA. We're all being thrown under the bloody bus by this lot!

Refs:
[1] - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudendal_nerve
[2] - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome

Thanks all, but I only really mentioned my Dad to illustrate colon surgery is a really serious thing, certainly not something that should be entered into lightly.

So sorry Tinsel.