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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids

86 replies

BelaLugosisShed · 03/01/2018 09:54

I’m blocked by them but someone posted this by them last night. Note that they are being deliberately vague, but to me at least, the implication of suicides is there.

4 deaths in 6 months opposed to one officially documented Trans child suicide in 10 years ? - something is off here.

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ALunerExplorer · 04/01/2018 09:29

Bless you FarFrom. Nice to meet you.

CaptainWarbeck · 03/01/2018 23:45

RTB thanks for sharing that link. My heart breaks for that writer. I'm glad she found a way out of the madness and is happier.

She really highlights how misogynistic the trans ideology is, especially the cissexism stuff. It's born males' needs coming first, and female always last. The trans AMAB being the most oppressed. If you're AFAB and cis, you have cis privilege. If you're AFAB and trans, you now have male privilege. Female (unless it's originally male) can't win.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 03/01/2018 23:34

The problem FarFrom and with the greatest respect, is that the TRA agenda is anti women, anti children, anti democratic, anti free speech and pretty much anti anything that is good.

So you may have to forgive those fighting against it.

We all, and in the years I have been watching this, I don't think I have seen any exceptions, believe that trans people should be afforded human rights in the same way as any other human should.

But sex is immutable. And for feminists, gender is bollocks although I accept there is wiggle room there for the new world gender-religionists to do their own self identification whatever they feel to be

But noone else should be coerced to believe what they believe

FarFrom · 03/01/2018 23:24

Eresh I have. And have had my motives questioned to the hills- been accused of all sorts of agendas including detailing. And have seen the same happening but more so to other posters. I’m not sure how much point there is in me engaging in the limited time I have- but I do appreciate others doing so.
Not saying I won’t. But it never seems anyone wants to really hear anything different- just wants to fight- hence taking about tactics etc

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2018 23:14

Are you ever going to engage with anyone you don't agree with, FarFrom?

FarFrom · 03/01/2018 22:31

Aluner- you also sound like someone with experience in this area. I've said this to others but thanks for posting and I imagine you wont have the will to post for long. But I do think it makes a (small) difference.

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2018 20:00

I've read lots of accounts by detransitioners and most of them report being shunned by the queer community.

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2018 19:54

Think about it in these terms:

If you can speak and are being heard you have power.
If you can speak but are not being listened to you have power but less of it.
If you can speak but are merely repeating what you are told without conscious consideration you have less power and can be controlled.
If you can not speak but someone speaks on your behalf then you have even less power and its not yours to use.
If you can not speak and no one speak on your behalf then you have no power.

This also reveals degrees of vulnerability.

Who falls into what category? There are people in every category on both sides of this debate. Think about it. Its interesting.

I find stories from angles which are least heard often the hardest and most shocking to hear. And perhaps the most revealing about weaknesses in society.

I stumbled on this viewpoint today:
4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/

Now I can't verify how accurate it is, or how widespread similar experiences might be. The point is that it does get you thinking about who might not be speaking and heard. And why. The why is important.

People who don't regularly get heard are often dismissed as not existing. These are the politically voiceless who do exist in society and we should generally do more to identify as they are often the most vulnerable of all.

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2018 19:38

This should be a letter writing/social media campaign. We need to let them know they will be under scrutiny and could potentially be considered to have failed in duty of care in future.

guardianfree · 03/01/2018 19:37

Thank you RTB. The DfE has a complaints system which is quite useful. I am looking forward to their explanations about why they are funding and recommending groups to schools that are promoting medical experimentation on minors.
And I can't wait for their 'clarification' about why it is appropriate for political pressure groups to promote ignoring safeguarding 'rules' for children in schools.

BelaLugosisShed · 03/01/2018 19:27

So many fabulous and intelligent posters on this thread, Thank you. Mermaids and all the orgs like them will be involved in a scandal that will likely be up there with Savile, Vaginal mesh and The Magdalene Laundries. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 03/01/2018 19:23

Guardianfree, my degree taught to 'listen for the silence' and to use that to try and spot the gaps in knowledge / information / a story. Its invaluable as a way to try and rethink things and create a new angle.

In terms of institutions, they are all down to process and procedure about what their role and responsibilities are. This makes them cumbersome but they provide their own framework for you to work around.

Unpick what they do, frame your argument on their terms and structure. Effectively use their system for your own ends.

(This is how transcult are being successful. The stuff on the internet is a stretching of boundaries and a distraction from how you can get to the people / institutions that form policy).

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2018 19:12

They won't like to think that they might be responsible for the next massive scandal.

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2018 19:11

There has to be an offensive where you focus on certain key elements - like this idea of ethics and consent - and then throw it back at institutions who have legal duties and responsibilities which this then raises.

If they have been asked these questions and something then happens, this means their response was insufficient / weak / non existent and they have failed in their duty.

Public bodies won't like it being exposed where they are forced to admit to a gap in a duty of care of the vulnerable.

YY. This is exactly what we need to do. They will get the jitters. These public sector orgs aren't mired in queer theory, they don't have the rigid dogmatic beliefs that drive the trans agenda. They are just trying to be politically correct and reduce chance of non compliance with equality legislation. Let's challenge that.

guardianfree · 03/01/2018 19:09

Thank you RTB.

I am just working on a complaint about this and this is incredibly helpful.

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2018 19:05

guardianfree, this is the whole thread on Trumpisms and how it works

twitter.com/GeorgeLakoff/status/948424436058791937

I don't agree with all of it, but for the most part its right.

Turn the debate, by reframing things and go at from a different angle.

At the moment feminists are following the framing rather than creating framing over the debate. They are responding rather than asking the questions that matter.

There has to be an offensive where you focus on certain key elements - like this idea of ethics and consent - and then throw it back at institutions who have legal duties and responsibilities which this then raises.

If they have been asked these questions and something then happens, this means their response was insufficient / weak / non existent and they have failed in their duty.

Public bodies won't like it being exposed where they are forced to admit to a gap in a duty of care of the vulnerable.

Example: Ask questions about how success / harm are measured, and in whom, rather than playing along with this already constructed narrative about suicide and just in those who are trans.

Its about finding the gaps in the story which are important and sticking a bloody great wedge in there to turn the story to an agenda that transcult is not leading.

Speak the language of institutions and use it against them.

TheCowWentMoo · 03/01/2018 18:50

This is a tweet that states absolutely nothing but is designed to perpetuate a very dangerous narrative.
4 people in their network have died, it implies suicide of trans children however it doesn't mean that. It just means 4 people have died, could be trans people, could be the family of trans people, it could be workers. They may be old, ill, they may have been in car crashes etc. It means absolutely nothing. Obviously any death particularly of a child is tragic however mermaids are using a very emotive topic to push their ideology.
I would expect that trans people would attempt suicide at a higher rate that non-trans people, that is the nature of being trans. Being so unhappy in your own body that you wish to take medication or surgery to change it is likely to lead to suicidal feelings. It is body dysmorphia, similar to the fact you would expect higher rates of suicide amongst people with anorexia. They are also likely to experience more bullying and much more likely to have Asd. Often girls with asd feel 'wrong' and they can be lead to believe that they are born in the wrong body, however transitioning doesn't change their sense of wrongness because it doesn't deal with the root cause. Therefore i would expect higher suicide rates in that population too.

However that doesn't mean that we should transition children, that we should give children potentially life altering treatment because they feel they are in the wrong body. It doesn't mean that a lack of rights for trans people triggers suicide, it could in fact mean the opposite that transitioning leads to suicidal thoughts. The statistic of high suicide rates amongst trans people alone means nothing, it is simply a statistic that trans people have a higher rate of mental illness, which we already knew.

Mermaids doesn't take this statistic and campaign for more counselling, more help and support for children who feel in the wrong body, it doesn't campaign for better access to MH care. They campaign for less access to MH care for these children in reality as they wish to push through transitioning that anyone who feels 'wrong' must be trans as opposed to further counselling and exploration of why these children feel this way. They are simply picking up a (perhaps false) statistic to push through their own agenda, it is a little like emotions blackmail. "transition your child or they will commit suicide", it is so incredibly dangerous and unethical.

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2018 18:47

And is it owl or fox who represents them? He called homosexuality deviant. And tried desperately to refute the statistics on trans sex offenders, despite them being subsequently verified by the Ministry of Justice.

It was Fox who called homosexuality deviant. And Owl who wrote a stupid article in the Independent rubbishing Fair Play for Women's article on transwomen sex offenders. Which got beautifully taken down in turn by Andrew Gilligan.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/01/2018 18:38

It isn't Mermaids who are weaponising the situation.

It really is, Luner. All that "I'd rather have a live daughter than a dead son" stuff they push. They absolutely do push the "transition or die" message, which is utterly dangerous and disgusting of them to do. (Mainly because it actively promotes suicide to young people, but also because it's a cover for their other message, which is "better a trans daughter than a gay son", being the fucking bunch of homophobes that they are.)

guardianfree · 03/01/2018 18:30

Thank you RedToothBrush'. You add such a lot of insight into these difficult issues.
The challenge is HOW do we get people to hear this? Especially those in positions of power and influence. I have said it to my MP who has parroted the government view back at me.
I have peaktransed as many educationists as I can.
But the fact remains that the pressure groups are funded and promoted by the DfE and therefore people working with children have suspended their critical faculties and accept that pressure groups know better.
That Trump tweet that you posted was I think very pertinent to this.

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2018 18:23

The basic problem is that people make assumptions BEFORE they examine a problem.

This leads them to conclusions that might not be right, because they essentially know the answer before they ask the question.

You should actively try to disprove your own initial belief to the best of your ability to see if it stands up to this scrutiny. You should consider alternative explanations.

What I'm seeing with regards to trans cult is a complete void of ethics. Given the nature of being trans, its different and this reality can not be ignored. This means you can reduce it to the issue of consent to see these problems laid at their barest.

  1. Are those making decisions Gillick Competent? Many aren't. Decisions with such life long consequences are being made by others on their behalf. There are massive ethical questions here.

  2. Those who are Gillick Competent but still minors are still vulnerable. The void in the lack of safeguarding here is huge. Just how much are teenagers able to make their own decisions free from undue influence?

  3. Self ID and medicalisation without scrutiny is totally unethical in adults, never mind children.

  4. There is a lack of research and an absence of knowledge about long terms outcomes. Yet again, young people are being lead into this.

  5. This means that individuals are totally unable to make informed decisions.

  6. How do we measure the very idea of the 'successful' treatment / help / support of someone who presents as trans? Information about those who desist seemingly isn't relevant or recorded. This is a total absence of relevant information. Its selective picking and choosing of data.
    Indeed the emphasis here very much seems to be on the idea of 'failure', which may simply be a correlation rather than caused by exploring the possibility of being trans. But how do we measure harm properly? Its not just about those who are trans. Again there is an absence of data here too.

  7. On top of this you have trans activists pushing for a de-medicalisation of the entire process, which would automatically remove all ethics from a process which in many cases does involve medical intervention or consequences.
    Which is a great big huge red flag because the very concept and principles of consent automatically become weakened or totally removed.

We are talking about people, who if they are at risk of suicide, are therefore vulnerable, and do need safe guarding and gate keeping at certain points.

I speak as someone who hated the hoops of the system I had to jump through. My experience was good though but I do see that other trusts are doing harm through poor procedure for the same situation. I don't think you should scrap the system entirely though. You need to develop better care pathways and handling of a sensitive issue through training and understanding of what works and what is part of the problem. To rip it all up and just let patients get whatever they want without advice is going to do much more harm.

AnotherQuoll · 03/01/2018 18:22

Interesting that so many of us read that Mermaids tweet and understood it to mean Mermaids knew four young trans people who'd committed suicide. My first assumption was teens to mid twenties
But it doesn't actual say that.
It also doesn't tell us who the "network" is- Mermaids' trans clients or volunteers, trans activists, the whole UK trans population? In fact, it doesn't even say they were trans.
It also doesn't state causes of death. They could've been anything from workplace accident, to typhoid while travelling, or complications from surgeries...
But maybe they were under 25, trans, and it as the suicide as implied....Did this happen while being "supported" by Mermaids? And how does that support an appeal for donations so they can keep doing what they're doing, if they've just lost four young trans people while doing what they're doing?

Lancelottie · 03/01/2018 18:05

ALuner - where does your interest in this arise, if you don't mind me asking? Your approach is somewhat similar to mine a couple of years back, as far as I can see, and seems to stem partly from a trust in the current process and the stages of counselling expected.

Do you work in the area and thus have recent experience of it?

I'm wondering, because five years back, when the first of our friends announced to everyone that they had a transgender child, they were clear that the counselling process had been going on for two years, had been very thorough, that their former daughter was in fact their son and that transition was very much in their best interests.

Two years back, a second set of family friends announced the same process. Counselling still hasn't even started, and they're still on the waiting list for an appointment at the Tavistock, but social transition was pretty much automatic at school from the moment she first mentioned it - barely time to pause for thought, bang, new name, new pronouns. I am worried that this anxious, shy child will find it hard to navigate a way back to normal gruff tomboyish girlhood if that is what she needs (as her family seem to think likely). When I met them recently, one parent was carefully avoiding all pronouns entirely and the other was using 'he' and 'she' at random.

This autumn, the third family friend started the process by dint of, as far as I can see, posting indignant rants on Facebook. No mention of any counselling or waiting. Just 'yay, rainbows, #NoDebate, and you're all ancient bigots on the wrong side of history (where have I heard that before?) for thinking I was ever a girl'.

The anecdotal impression I'm getting from this is that counselling is ever harder to come by, and so teenagers are finding their own support from sources that are far from neutral.

Datun · 03/01/2018 17:32

"sudden onset gender dysphoria" (which started popping up in the summer) pathologies' children, as well denying them agency with a totally made up label for which I have been unable to find any peer reviewed, academic studies on by the way. It also denies agency and autonomy to trans/GNC/gender questioning children.

As red says, you may be looking in the wrong places.

Try here for the study into rapid onset gender dysphoria.

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(16)30765-0/abstract

red

Your thought process is admirable. I find your posts reassuring in the extreme.

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2018 17:16

Many years ago, when I realised I had a problem with the idea and concept of childbirth, it lead me down a path of worthlessness and questioning my value and role as a woman.

From many years I was hostile to the idea of having children. I knew I didn't want them. They were repellent to be and I couldn't bear to be around them.

At this point I realised it wasn't the problem I thought and I looked around actively for explanations and solutions. And this is where it starts to get murky.

You unconsciously start with an idea in your head and you look for things to prove it. This isn't necessarily healthy, and I was aware of this.

But getting information thats unbiased in this area is damn near impossible. There is a substantial amount of ideological basis on display from within the medical profession. Not only that, but it soon became apart to me that educated people who were supposed to understand statistics and routinely translate data for laymen were incapable of doing so because they made the most basic of mistakes when it came to methodology and comparing different groups. Rarely were ideas about things outside the scope of a study which might make a study fundamentally flawed even identified. Correlation was too frequently labelled causation and simply repeated the ideology belief that the study sort to prove.

It was riddled with bad science.

What I found out during my experience was it was too easy to become emotionally submerged in it all and lose all sight of objectivity. You had to consciously step back outside of it all and remove your own feelings.

What I discovered was pretty much all the data had some sort of flaw on both sides. But you could piece together patterns and different common themes. And indeed causes. They were complex in nature and very individual. Risks in one group were not the same as the risk in a slightly different group. You had to think about which risks might apply to you and then look at the worst possible outcomes from all scenarios.

Above all else, it required you to start being honest with yourself - and no one else - about what exactly was the problem and what individual elements bothered you most. You had to pick it all apart bit by bit rather than treating it as a singular problem with a simple singular solution. And acknowledge that even then this wasn't necessarily going to go to plan. You could not control it, you could only be at peace with your decision. You had to confront that slither of doubt and be able to cohesively reply to criticism, not for others benefit but to be honest with yourself. Mantras don't satisfy that. They merely suppress fear, criticism and inner doubts.

Your outcome wasn't for you to impose on otherwise either as problems in this area unique to everyone. You couldn't treat it as a problem which produced an identity common to everyone.

The things that were most problematic to this is some respects were groups which advocated a method and/or solution above addressing the building blocks which formed the unique make up of the problem.

Natural birth advocates and pro-cs advocates had the same deep flaws. Some to a greater or lesser extent. The communities that built up around these movements were not helpful and didnt necessarily serve the interests of everyone they claimed to serve. Indeed some were out right harmful or damaging to certain individuals because of the particular nature of their problem.

By a stroke of luck I happened upon an article written by someone who had to do something more than most midwives, ironically by virtue of being male. Basically he listened more than espousing his own views on others. It allowed those women to unpick it all and to start to take control of elements in their lives which were not working with regard to their relationship between the physical and the mental.

He personally has a strong belief in the merits of natural childbirth, but realises that not everyone fits this model and that championing a method before individually tailored care which respected women and their experience and recognised the value of them was paramount. Pressure or social influence of any kind was simply at the very best unhelpful and at worst actively harmful.

I see so many common patterns here.

The science surrounding this, is bollocks. All of it. Bits of it demonstrate certain possibilities but nothing is anywhere near conclusive. Its flawed and too often its coming back to use of language and agendas. Researchers are being handicapped by ideology restricting them. They can not prove, nor disprove anything conclusively.

This is something that sets off alarm bells in my head, and should in even the most pro-trans person. How can you advocate something you have such little real understanding of and not have an honesty and desire to pursue it? In order to prove something you need to be self critical and look for alternative explanations and solutions.

Mermaids also falls foul of method before individuals. Anyone worth half their salt would be talking about positive outcomes in a range of different scenarios and with different methods. Because so few things in life have simple singular solutions, particularly when it comes to anything that has a medical role in it, purely because side effects affect people in such vastly different ways and individual experiences mean people have different coping strategies. Instead its stressing the negativity about if they aren't given influence and power. The combination of mental health and negativity in this way is potentially toxic because it has the power to become self fulfilling in those who are vulnerable. If there is a problem with suicide, then there should not be anything near that tone being used to promote their agenda. It is playing into insecurity and playing power games to serve it own agenda rather than serve individuals.

Not only this but its healthy to have multiple support structures rather than encourage a single community and identity around a medical experience or condition. People are not singular in identities and experiences. Its a retreat into this that makes people potentially less able to cope with outside challenges.

This is where it becomes cult like and indeed makes it open to abuse and harm to those who don't quite fit that particular model by individuals who might see it as an opportunity to exploit vulnerable people.

Mermaids reflects the worst elements, traits and flaws of all of these issues that I faced in the exploration of something which was fundamental to my identity and being and how I fitted into wider society.

That single tweet embodies so much about its flaws and despite its brevity reveals a great deal.

Multiplicity and discussion is essential to those in situations like this. You can not escape your own reality.

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