Do these attitudes really still exist?

God that’s depressing that these attitudes still exist. My grannie faced them going to university in the 1930s, my mum faced it in the 60s and yet I’m the family fuck up for not having a degree! (That was lighthearted about me being a fuck up btw)

My point is that I’m not educated beyond school/vocational qualifications but I cannot abide attitudes which hold women back and try to enforce 100 year old ideas on us. OP do your own thing, never mind what anyone else thinks.

I remember as a student using the words 'optical illusion' at my summer job. The manager and the teenage staff members raised their eyebrows and looked at each other as if I was getting above myself.
There's definitely an anti-intellectual culture in this country and it exists even among the educated. I remember growing up, people who were university educated themselves questioning the value of advanced degrees.

You also see it in conversations, it generally goes down to the lowest level so that people end up talking about reality TV because they're afraid to talk about something more complicated and get the raised eyebrows treatment. I didn't get this at all on the continent. There, people spoke about all sorts of subjects even if there were people present who wouldn't be able to contribute much.

Beyond the page, your comment is interesting as surely that attitude is part of the problem. If someone is experiencing prejudice it must be their fault in some way

No, I do not think it MUST be their fault in some way, I DO, however, think it CAN be their fault in some way.

I do not think of "prejudice" concerning higher intellect - I know that just because I have not experienced it it does not mean it does not exist, but the only prejudice I have seen concerns those with lower education status, those who can't fight back.

I have no "preconceived ideas" - I have ideas formed from experience like everyone else. Just because my experience is different,does not make it any the less valid.

"Do these attitudes really exist?" - was a question. I did not realise it was rhetorical.

If not, my answer is "It obviously depends on the people you mix with."

Haven't read whole thread but I would say that you make them feel inferior as they believe they are inferior due to lack of education and in the jobs race.

So it's not your fault its their low self esteem. and they feel threatened.
I would try to keep up a relationship. Perhaps once they reach retiral age or when they put this behind them for some other reason things might improve.

The answer based on responses to this thread is clearly that yes these attitudes do exist. The extent to which they exist is not clear, as what we have here is only a collection of anecdotes.

I don't think that @baramewe does pay any attention to what her sexist relatives say.

Lass - Oh for fuck's sake. You complain about your irritating professor friend, but many of your own posts are equally as sanctimonious

You have rather missed the point there. No one finds her behaviour irritating because of anti- intellectualism.

As for Allison knowing "100s of people" in my profession in my city who have apparently experienced this not once have I heard any of the women I have worked with say anything of the sort.

and some lass, the 'if I haven't experienced it it must not be real' is boring and doesn't add to the discussion

Well I didn't say that did I ? Or are experiences which validate your experience only relevant ?

Your question was "do these attitudes really exist"? Your answer would seem to be you have a particularly troglyditic set of in-laws- why do you pay any attention to what they say?

Keep studying OP you will get there in the end. Whatever else happens you will have developed your knowledge, skill and confidence. It’s not just about the piece of paper ( though that’s also important) and mature students often do really well so give yourself a pat on the back and keep on.

I agree Irk.

Witness also thread after thread telling women that they shouldn't expect their husbands to get up with a baby at night because he has to be rested for work, or telling women who can barely move from illness that they are unreasonable to expect their partner to take a day off to look after children. Women are supposed to do without sleep and carry on when very ill to avoid men being inconvenienced in any way.

Lass - Oh for fuck's sake. You complain about your irritating professor friend, but many of your own posts are equally as sanctimonious.

When I was 12 my father said to me that there was no point in educating girls as they would just go on to have babies.

Even at that age I had to laugh out loud at how fucking ridiculous this man was. He lost his job two years after I was born and never worked consistently again. He was entirely supported by his university educated wife.

Even when the evidence is right in front of some people's faces they can't see it.

I totally agree OP and have experienced the same - a conflation of sex and class.

ALLISON - great comment. I also totally agree.

No Allison (btw no idea who you are yet you seem to know all about me.I always think it is a bit sneaky to name change but harp on about another poster in the way you have just done) I'm not going to lie about having encountered the sort of anti- intellectualism being described here.

Theres another thread by a woman who runs her own business, and wants her husband to do more childcare. The first page is full of people telling her she is being unreasonable and selfish.

I'm pretty sure if it were the other way round and it were her husbands business, she'd be told to suck it up as her husband is trying to build a successful business for his family.

Its still a really common attitude that women should put themselves second, not be too clever, not earn more than their male partner, and be grateful.

No nor me. I don't think I've ever come across the attitudes described

That doesn’t suprised me LassWitheDelicateAir. Because I know hundreds of people In your profession in your city and you are the only woman who claims there is no sexism or misogyny.

And you have NEVER encountered ay sexual harassment yourself so obviously it doesn’t exists . Or women are making it up for attention.

So it doesn’t surprise me at all that you have never encountered sexist attitudes towards women’s education. You do have form for being a bit of a flat earther.

My ex-husband is my ex-husband partly because of the way he reacted to my going into higher education. What makes it particularly ridiculous is that his own late mother was uni educated. But then, he hated anything at all that too my 'attention' away from him, and that included our kids.

Really sorry to hear that you get this opposition from your in laws but good on your dh for thinking for himself, and I bet your family are incredibly proud of you.

Lass we can all come up with anecdotes I’m not sure it proves anything. My deeply anti intellectual mil describes a Nephew who was first in her family as having ‘got above himself’ I’ve also met WC people supportive of education but this doesn’t mean there is no anti intellectualism in our society. Its like the not all men argument.

It’s a phenomenon easily observed and has an insidious effect especially on women who are socialised to seek approval. Its really difficult to stand up to family who are undermining your desire for knowledge. It’s important we don’t pretend this doesn’t happen.

It’s also manifested structurally through the type of help single parents can get to get back into work. I was lucky that I had the little support I had because all the help on offer from the government (in the 90s) directed me towards low skilled, low paid caring jobs that would have kept me poor and dependent on the state. I didn’t want that.

I sympathise to some extent with those who get defensive around education and the educated because it’s not easy. But I don’t think the answer is to retreat from confronting the attitude and I’ve had some great success in the past with introducing individuals who were very scared of education to returning to learn. It’s never too late and a decent education can transform a persons life, confidence and prospects. I’ve made a massive difference to people’s lives and happiness. That’s why I challenge anti intellectualism where I see it.

I do think there's a strong class element - my FIL was banging on about academics and how useless they are, how they're disconnected from the real world etc. I had to remind him that his own son was an academic. For him it's an inferiority complex.

I think there's also an extra layer of misogyny. My PILs can't seem to get their head around me working at all. DH and I run a company and I'm the CEO but they still seem to think I just do a little bit here and there while he is the real Big Man. I don't think they can compute at all a situation where a woman actually has her own life and dreams - she must always be supporting a man. MIL had to give up her business and move countries when FIL lost his job when DH was little. It was a ridiculous situation - they moved to a horrible place where they never fit in, leaving behind their dream house and MIL's dream career so FIL could have exactly the job he was entitled to. At no point did it ever occur to them that it might be far more sensible to stay put and for FIL to just get a shitty job to keep money coming in (as women do all the time). I've seen this happen with friends too - the woman's career/dreams just get thrown in the bin in favour of a man's need to always be at the level he thinks he should be at.

I have not found it to be the case at all to be honest

No nor me. I don't think I've ever come across the attitudes described.

I do however have one friend who is a professor who can be very irritating when she goes on about how clever she is. She once commented about a new boyfriend that what attracted her was that he was one of the few people she had met who was as clever as she is. Finding that irritating however has nothing to do with her education.

Thank you some dyke I’m very much looking forward to using dr on any forms I need to fill out in future.

Beyond the page I think you may have been lucky with your family (though it sounds like your SIL hasn’t) but I disagree most strongly. I didn’t get my degree till my mid 30s but those people sneering at education around me preceded this by many years. I was aware of the attitude for as long as I can remember and have come across it in the wider community when doing work in SOAs around the UK. On one memorable occasion in a family learning room a group of children stuck their fingers up at our lovely tutor every time she turned her back while their mothers laughed and she’d them on. A free course, in art, with free biscuits and juice. So I don’t think it’s my attitude that is the problem here.

I have not found it to be the case at all to be honest. DH family are all WC - so are mine... I have a first in Maths.

Neither family looks down on me being "educated".

They do look down on SIL - not because she is also educated - but because she acts - with every fibre of her being - as if she is superior to them because she is educated.

Would look to your own attitudes first sometimes - an air of superiority is easy to spot in others - not always easy to spot in oneself.

"I'm just about to have my PHD viva at the ripe old age of 50."
Best wishes. I won't say good luck because it isn't luck, it's your chance to argue in depth about an area where you are the expert with people who are deeply interested. And you'll then have the chance to use a non sexed title which impresses bank managers no end (if such mythical creatures can still be found!).

In the past it was working people that set up educational institutions and libraries. But my dad refused to use Dr and said now you think you're better than us. It was annoying.

Yes, they do, I'm afraid, and just you wait until your degree does actually lead to a good career. IMO it's exactly what @wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool says: women not being meant to actually have their own dreams and pursue them - except that, in my experience, it's not just a toff thing but more a case of a very narrow group of educated MC types possibly being about the only ones that don't systematically engage in this.

Point in case: I was 30, had just been promoted into my first 'serious' managerial role and was making rather good money for the first time in my life while exH was trying and failing a variety of harebrained business ventures and relying heavily on my income in order not to starve (and fund his conspicuous spending habits9. Nonetheless, I was the selfish one according to both him and especially my sanctimonious MIL because apparently, I should have been concentrating on supporting his entrepreneurial dreams and give MIL a grandchild instead of following my own ambitions and making sure exH had a roof over his head in the process.

The divorce cost me half a fortune in pension funds - it was a price well worth paying for being allowed to have my own ambitions and getting rid of them.

exH is now married to a woman whose main ambition is to be a SAHM and look after her family. To no one's surprise, that's also not acceptable to exMIL and that woman really ought to be pulling her weight financially. Dear bossy, you see, always had her own money to pay for luxuries and wasn't imposing on poor exH ... just so long as a woman is appropriately miserable, I suppose!

exH comes from a decidedly WC background, by the way.