Hampstead Heath Women's Pond

KPLA is wrong of course.

A difference in treatment may be lawful if ... A service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Just to be clear, the KLPA don’t run the pond, the City do, but the KLPA are a very active pressure group.

No, membership of the KLPA is completely optional, although it only costs £5 a year and they do a lot of really good work to protect the pond. In theory there is an entrance charge (£2) but it is set up in such a way that you don’t need to pay it - like a contributions box on the way into an art gallery.

Do you have to pay a membership fee for access to the pond? I'm just wondering what would happen if members withdrew support.

The first sentence of the email to KLPA members was a pretty special example of trans newspeak:

Dear KLPA member

As you may be aware, there has been coverage in the media today about male swimmers being allowed to swim and use the changing and showering facilities at the Ladies’ Pond, confusing this issue with that of transgender swimmers. The statement below sets out the KLPA Committee’s position on the matter of transgender swimmers in relation both to the law and the practicalities of safe and respectful conduct at the Pond.

We are making plans for all KLPA members to be given more information about the issues surrounding transgender swimmers and an opportunity to discuss any concerns that members may have. For the record, in 2017 there has been no evidence of an increase in men attempting to abuse the legal position in relation to transgender rights. It is our understanding that the very few incidents that did occur during the hot weather were dealt with effectively by the lifeguards (who have had experience over the years to occasional episodes of men trying to gain access).

TRANSGENDER WOMEN AT THE KENWOOD LADIES' POND

The KLPA is committed to ensuring safe and respectful swimming at the Ladies Pond and an inclusive social environment in which everyone can expect to be treated with respect, courtesy and consideration and be free from discrimination, harassment or victimisation. It goes without saying that transgender women should be treated in the same way but with consideration for the additional sensitivities they may face. Although it is tempting to assume someone’s gender simply by their appearance, it’s important to try to avoid doing so and to be aware of the needs of genuinely transgender women.

The legal context for this is the Equalities Act 2010 which prohibits discrimination on grounds of transgender status. The City of London, which manages the Ponds, is bound by this and so too is the KLPA. In that regard, both the lifeguards and members of the KLPA Committee have undergone transgender awareness training and we have been considering ways of providing a trans-friendly swimming environment.

We understand the process of transition can be complex and difficult and we would wish to act in a supportive and sensitive way. We recognize the need to provide the option of additional privacy for changing/showering and have begun discussions with the City about achieving this.

The diverse community of women and girls – including transgender women – at the Ladies’ Pond contribute to its unique and very precious quality. We believe that with a continued commitment from all swimmers to respect the rights to the privacy and dignity of others, we can continue to protect and enjoy it.

With all good wishes for a happy and peaceful 2018.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets just for the record the ladies’ pond is way better than the men’s pond! I’ve swum in all of them because sometimes we get an invitation to swim in the men’s pond (the invitation is never reciprocated), and when they were doing work on the dams around the ladies’ pond we were allowed to swim in the men’s pond for the first couple of hours each day. I’d agree with Saints that invading the men’s pond isn’t the answer, none of those users will be flocking to the ladies’ pond.

On the gay thing, what Beetle says is true, the men’s pond doesn’t feel like a gay men’s space particularly, aside from the public meadow opposite in very hot weather. It really isn’t known as a “space for gay men to do their thing in peace” - it’s the West Heath which is known for cruising which is quite a trek from the men’s pond. At the pond there is a large screened off area of the (open to the sky) changing space where nude sunbathing is allowed - this is where they let women change when we are invited to use the pond - and I’m sure there’s plenty of eyeing each other up in there is the summer, but it’s not something a straight man would be unable to easily avoid.

"Gender" used in this way makes me grind my teeth. Every single time. I was watching something earlier where people had to record their sex because they were dieting and measuring progress and of course they used fucking "gender". Arrgh! Fat lot of use it would be to know if they identified as a non binary asexual!

But there's a mixed fucking pool! Already! There was a pool for men, amd a pool for women, and a pool for everyone, and now there are two mixed pools and one for men only. In what fucking universe is this anything other than taking from one group to give to another?!

Oh for fuck's sake, they aren't gender affected sports. They're sex-affected.

OK so the equality and diversity page at the top has a pic of 2 girls,

It talks about disability and LGBT issues (they mean trans here not anyone else).

The D&I guidance for clubs is not available - I get a timeout.
I found it somewhere else and it is not very informative.

This is all by the by though isn't it.

Fact is that the specific issues around swimming and women/girls are certainly not included on their website or their equalities piece. Which is interesting.

The page on inclusion and diversity has a picture of 2 girls at the top and then goes on to not mention girls as far as I've read.

It does have this note:

"Swim England is responsible for regulation within its sports. These are gender-affected sports as defined by legislation, and we expect clubs to abide by our rules.

This is because physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other sex.

We adopted a policy on trans competitors in November 2011. This was to ensure equal and fair competition in the sports, and to ensure the safety of competitors."

There is a lot about how trans people need lots of privacy and stuff which also presumably women, whether trans or not, don't.

How surprising I bet Transwall and Gendered Unintelligence wrote the whole thing.

"Where non-binary customers wish to use the
pool i.e. those people whose gender identity
does not fit naturally into male and female
identities, you should encourage them to
attend sessions that are open to everyone."

?????????????????????????????????????????

Where do they change though?
And I mean, these people don't literally HAVE NO SEX what on earth.

Plus according to topshop, non binary people can go where they fancy and swim englad are behind the times.

Going to check out swim england women policy.

They won't comment officially to say whether the rules have been changed. So difficult to say. Can we do an FOI?

Oh that is an interesting document.

There is a whole section about trans only swimming sessions that I don't think anyone would argue with if the inetrest is enough to make it viable. This bit though:

"The trans community is very similar to some faith communities in terms of the privacy initially needed when accessing the pool."

But those same faith communities will not be able to attend any more as a result of their policies soooo.....

Reading on

There is a lot about how trans people need lots of privacy and stuff which also presumably women, whether trans or not, don't.

Of course many men don't like to get undressed in front of people with vaginas & breasts either, however people with vaginas and breasts are far less likely to be keen to get into the mens changing to watch them taking their clothes off, and the physical threat is completely different. Both in terms of likelihood and ability to carry it out.

It's like Lily Madigan as Women's Officer. The Labour Party could restrict these posts to AFAB (!) women but there is no legal obligation to do so.

Are they not required to do an impact assessment, though?

Good questions guardianfree, and it would be worth asking them.

I'm sure they never consulted women's groups. What's the equivalent to Stonewall for women?

My impression is that Equality Act 2010 enables but does not enforce female-only services, and then the onus is on the organization to make the case why it is necessary. It's like Lily Madigan as Women's Officer. The Labour Party could restrict these posts to AFAB (!) women but there is no legal obligation to do so.

wonder whether we need to start using Freedom of Information requests in a more systematic way, ie,
Who wrote the Swim England's policy?
Which groups did they consult with?
Did they consult any women's groups?
Have they risk assessed the dangers to girls and women from allowing self ID men into changing rooms?
What were the outcomes from these risk assessments?
What steps have they taken to ensure that women from faith groups who are unable to share changing rooms with born males are not discriminated against and unable to use facilities?

YY. This is exactly what we need to do.

Only instead of physical labour we’ll have to sit all day filling out ‘diversity’ workbooks and chanting “Transwomen are women”.

I'll be stressing the last syllable.

How on earth have Swim England been able to avoid the requirements of the Equality Laws for sex segregated changing rooms?

And this is happening everywhere, without consent and without awareness. The terrible thing is that this won't be challenged until dreadful things have happened to children and women - and only then will people realise what has happened and start safeguarding again.

I wonder whether we need to start using Freedom of Information requests in a more systematic way, ie,
Who wrote the Swim England's policy?
Which groups did they consult with?
Did they consult any women's groups?
Have they risk assessed the dangers to girls and women from allowing self ID men into changing rooms?
What were the outcomes from these risk assessments?
What steps have they taken to ensure that women from faith groups who are unable to share changing rooms with born males are not discriminated against and unable to use facilities?
etc etc....

'When offering single-sex sessions in your timetable, remember that you must enable trans swimmers to attend the sessions they would like to according to their gender identity, which may take some initial support and some education with other centre users.'

Detailed pamphlet here:
www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

Apparently they took advice from Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence.

Email: [email protected]

Education work

Well, history tends to repeat itself. I wonder how long it’ll be until we have a modern version of this:

http://www.pwf.cz/archivy/texts/articles/china-re-education-camps_2198.html

Only instead of physical labour we’ll have to sit all day filling out ‘diversity’ workbooks and chanting “Transwomen are women”.

Swiming clubs are often in schools where changing is communcal and separated only by sex.

For all the claims of what does it matter if it's all cubicles.

The showers are open and communal too.

There was one in USA wasn't there where the girls felt uncomfortable changing in front of the trans girl and so they all had to go and take it in turns to change in a cupboard

The things we have to do ... Of course the other effect is that we stop exercising / participating in sport which is strangely also aligned with MRA wishes, lots of men think women have no place in sport anyway.

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users"

ie shut the fuck up or get out.

Swim England are the ones who do my 8 and 10 yo DDs swimming club. I didn't know they would be educated into not worrying if large penis-people come in and start disrobing next to them.

Because the penis people know best and their comfort is paramount at all times, amirite.

Orwellian re-education I think. Everything we knew about ourselves needs correcting.