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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman requests a female nurse. She gets a transwoman instead.

137 replies

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 31/12/2017 02:55

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

There's a thread about this on AIBU and the usual cries of "transphobic bigots!" are out in full force.

I knew this would happen eventually. We predicted that sex and gender ID would clash like this but we were shot down and told it would never happen. Yet here we are.

I'm just angry that people thought this was acceptable. Who in their right mind could hear "I would like to see a female nurse please" and honestly think that a man who thinks he is/wants to be a woman was acceptable?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 00:03

Also, I suspect its probably worth getting a written note on your file, about wanting on a same sex practitioners for certain circumstances or having it recorded that you have history that might make you sensitive to certain situations and this should be taken into consideration. To protect yourself against any possible 'misunderstandings'.

Which is a fucking disgrace tbh, that anyone might feel they need to do that.

(And highlights how transcult opens a trust issue with the NHS and vulnerable women).

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2018 23:58

Just reading up on general advice on consent by GMC and government. You can refuse consent for any reason or no reason. It may be a reason that the practitioner thinks is irrational. Your consent is not valid if you feel pressured or under duress of any kind.

Consent sort in advance should be reaffirmed at the time of examination. If you have specific concerns these should be respected and discussed with you in partnership and not simply dismissed.

Your medical history, views and experiences are relevant and should be taken into account. They should be respected even if a HCP disagrees with them.

Trust between a patient and a HCP is paramount. If you do not feel your feelings are respected this is a breech of the patient / carer relationship.

To my mind the GCM and government advice effectively gives you the right to refuse to give consent to be treated by a transwoman, if you are uncomfortable with it. This can be deemed irrational and wrong by the transwoman. Thats just tough. Your political views and beliefs should always be respected even if a HCP totally disagrees with them.

If you feel pressured to have treatment from someone who is trans then that consent is not valid. They can not use the transphobic card to guilt you into treatment.

If its on your records that you have some sort of sexual violence or history of trauma against you, then this is appropriate and should be taken into consideration. Thus if you request a female practitioner sending along a transwoman without this being properly discussed and your explicit consent given without duress or pressure is appropriate otherwise they are not respecting your individual care needs and could potentially cause you distress / mental harm.

This all also protects the clinician and their working relationship with patients. So good practice here is in the interests of trans HCPs rather than discriminating against them.

The law is generally about reasonableness as a rule. Is it reasonable for a woman who has been sexually assaulted by a man to have a fear of men? Or indeed people who they regard 'irrationally' as men? Difficult to argue 'no' imho.

If this creates a situation where its a choice being forced to consent to treatment by a transwomen or have no treatment at all then this creates a problem for the NHS, if this situation would effectively do you harm or could do you harm in anyway.

Its different to see how they could enforce a law on 'transphobia' in these circumstances. You have rights as a patient which are in direct conflict with the principles of doing no harm to a patient. A HCP effectively seeking to impose this on a patient where it would do harm technically should not be deemed fit to practice.

The need to be sensitive to this conflict of interest should therefore be one that the NHS seeks to resolve with all staff, stating that yes, it is relevant because yes, it could harm a patient even if they regard them as bigotted or irrational. The NHS withholding treatment on the basis of patients being deemed as bigots in these circumstances is rather more difficult than telling a racist patient there is no white doctor for this reason. There is a cause to the irrationality that is reasonable to understand.

Where there are loops which might be problematic is if someone decides you have to 'have proof of assault / rape'. Or to put it another way, effectively the development of a rape clause for accessing health care from a woman only. I fail to see how you could easily marry such a clause up with the 'progressive' angle of being supportive of trans rights.

The other way around it is if suddenly the rules were changed on capacity to consent and an 'irrational fear of transwomen' was deemed to be a sign that you were incapable of capacity. Again, for the same reason I don't think that viable even with the craziness.

My point is, that if a case came up, and it got to the courts, I think there would be a strong case in law to rule in favour of women, even if the law were changed.

But thats the problem. You'd need a case to knock cases like this on the head and the NHS and medical bodies be forced to develop a clear and consistent policy that should be adhered to with regard to sex or former sex of staff.

The issue is the gap that has now formed and the lack of guidance to cover this conflict of interest. Its about women no longer fully being confident in their rights and fully aware.of what constitutes consent and when it is invalid in a medical situation.

The blurring of the principles and practice of consent is extremely troubling. The NHS and government, should really have a duty of care and the presence of this gap which is now forming is a failure of that duty of care.

Its a legal minefield ready to blow up in a lot of faces, because people failed to head the warning signs saying 'minefield dead ahead'.

In this case the Trust have immediately apologised. Does this mean they are developing a policy? Or does it mean they are avoiding making a formal policy and indeed a court case that would force a formal policy.

The irony is, that a debate would resolve this. People saying they don't want a debate, don't want this looking at properly for all concerned. That to me, rings alarm bells and makes me think a big gamble is being made on the back of the knowledge and experience that women don't complain.

ThatWasNotLove · 01/01/2018 23:12

From reading some of these threads today (very long car journey!) it makes me think that although we shouldn't have to ask for women HCP when necessary, we do and need to be more specific in language.

"I am coming for a smear test and want a same-sex HCP only." Something along these lines. We now have to bring biological sex into it, which is ridiculous, but just asking for a "woman" or "female" is not enough.

We definitely shouldn't have to, however, by using "same-sex" we're not saying "no men, no trans providers for my internal please". It's also be easier to respond to have someone presenting as the Pap smear TIM did saying they're a woman, because we could agree they're the same gender, or whatever, but we'd asked for the same sex, not same gender (presentation).

Again we shouldn't be the ones doing this, we should just have access to medical care,m. However, if this is what's going to be happening, we need some way to not have it as a big deal - or reduce the possibilities- at a time of stress to a great many women, as in the ones who've been born that biological sex and been socialized that way their entire life.

Voice0fReason · 01/01/2018 22:54

This is horrific. I don't expect to have to explain in advance that I want a female HCP. My expectation is that intimate examinations are done by female staff unless my specific permission has been sought in advance - BEFORE I get in the room!

And if consent is given, transwomen HCPs should always be chaperoned.

This cannot be allowed to continue.

guardianfree · 01/01/2018 20:30

I've also posted on that thread - she's being hammered for NOT being clear and assertive when her booked appointment with a female doctor was changed. Such vitriol and such a lack of understanding of why women often aren't assertive when 'cornered'. Sad

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 01/01/2018 20:21

Bloody hell bindi that's awful and outrageous. Well done for challenging it. Imagine if it happened to someone vulnerable who was too afraid or confused to cll him out? Having said that it is highly unlikely you were the only victim.

I've just posted on a thread in AIBU about a woman who requested a female GP to do her 6 week post-natal check, long story short despite her request she ended up being almost coerced into seeing a male GP. She's getting some awful stick from posters saying she is BU. It's truly frightening how many people hold these vile views about women's bodily autonomy.

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 19:26

That's awful Bindi.

ThatWasNotLove · 01/01/2018 10:50

In the comments, not the article, which seems to gave been lifted from The Times.

ThatWasNotLove · 01/01/2018 10:49

It's trending on Pink News on FB too. Not long before "terf" was used...

Bindibot · 01/01/2018 10:45

Any decent HCP would totally understand and accept a patients request of been seen by a particular sex without them having to disclose why, particularly in a routine appointment.

As a PP said a good HCP will always offer a chaperone, as much for their protection as the patients.

There was a GP at my practice who I complained about, I went to him with an ear infection and he asked me to undress from the waist up…

I went WTF, pointed out it was my ears and that if he wanted to listen to my chest he could do so through my top.
I made a verbal complaint.

Next time I ended up with him, again an ear infection, I’m prone. He decided that my smear test needed to be brought forward by 5 months and he’d do it now to save me the bother of making another appointment…

‘Just hop on the couch now…’ I pointed out a) I wasn’t due, b) I wanted a chaperone and was told not to be such a silly little girl…

Walked out of the room and asked for the practice manager, who accused first refused to believe such a thing of Dr X and then accused me of being racist. Asked her to check my address and see who else was registered there, DP who is of the same ethnic background as GP.

Disgusted that her first go to place was not to believe me, and then accuse me of racism.

I was also asked if I had ‘issues’ with men why didn’t I request a female.

It took me pointing out that he had broken so many ethics and that I had the number for the GMC on speed dial ( for work )before she would register my complaint.
(And I hated myself for doing the I’m not racist ‘cause card)

Even so fuck all happened.

Well except me being labelled a ‘difficult’ patient and only be seen by senior partners…result!! (Oddly enough the senior partner I see most often is male and of the same ethnic background as the one I complained about and we have a great relationship, cause he’s a professional and a decent guy)

I did complain to the GMC too, nothing happened. He’s still practising, not at our practice, after mutiple complaints he was asked to leave. (Even though practice manager stated I was the only one to complain ever ever…)

After 20 years of practice I have no difficulty believing that men will & do go in the the health care professions with the view to have access to women in a vulnerable state.

I agree with NAMALT, my Dad, my brother, my DP, my nephews are all decent men.

But enough men aren’t and as women are clearly not believed when they find the courage to actually report we as a sex- not a gender, have the right to dictate who has access to our body and when

IcedCocoa · 01/01/2018 08:54

Ditto.

irretating · 31/12/2017 23:12

@xenophile, pass on all our good wishes to her. I sincerely hope that many women will read this and take courage from it. I know I certainly have.

Xenophile · 31/12/2017 22:06

Cafeaulaitpourvous

You were absolutely right to be cynical, I will indeed pass your good wishes on to her.

MinniesAndMickeysNeedCounting · 31/12/2017 21:33

Thanks IrkThePurist, i hadn't thought it a insult, i just couldn't work it out anyway that it was making sense for me.

BlackBetha · 31/12/2017 21:12

Exactly, the key thing is consent, and respect for the patient's comfort and dignity. Basic stuff (but important) in healthcare. Regardless of whether the practitioner is trans, or male, or whatever, they should not put their personal feelings ahead of behaving professionally.

StylishDuck · 31/12/2017 20:53

I went to OOH with a problem that required examination of my genital area. It was a maleGP who I happened to see. He offered first to have a female GP step in for the examination or if I was happy with a chaperone he would do it. I was happy for him to do it with a chaperone present. I did however appreciate that he asked what I was comfortable with. I have no problem with a male HCP examining me - they see this sort of thing every day. I would wholeheartedly object to a man arguing he was a woman and was therefore entitled to carry out the examination with no regard as to whether I was comfortable with that. In fact any female nurse who has carried out a smear test for me has always ensured I'm comfortable with what she's doing. It's a professional courtesy I expect from any HCP.

IrkThePurist · 31/12/2017 20:50

MinniesAndMickeysNeedCounting
TIF and TIM stand for 'trans identifying female' and 'trans identifying male'. They are not used as an insult.

cafeaulaitpourvous · 31/12/2017 20:31

@Xenophile

If that is the case the I take back my obviously crap bullshittometer ( I amso sorry)

If you see this lady tell her we have her back xxxxxx ( I know I know we don't do kisses but fuck it) xxxx

MinniesAndMickeysNeedCounting · 31/12/2017 20:28

It's been very interesting reading this thread.
Could someone please tell me what TIM and FIM stand for please, I've googled for the acronyms but can't find anything.

AlbertandVicky · 31/12/2017 19:38

Trust policy is to consider seriously all requests for clinicians of a particular gender.”

Why on earth is the NHS referring to clinicians' gender? It's sex fgs.

BelaLugosisShed · 31/12/2017 19:32

It’s not just smears, Mammograms are very intimate too, I find mammograms worse than smears, certainly more uncomfortable, no way would I want a man positioning my breasts in the machine, it’s horrible.
Are women protected by the Equality act exclusions in medical situations?

SparklyUnicornTractors · 31/12/2017 19:28

They honestly come across as lacking something crucial in the empathy department.

Yes, those views have been enlightening. I take the wider view that watching these discussions happening and seeing the POV and attitudes put forward on either side have and will continue to let people easily reach conclusions on whether this is truly 'progressive' or right. All it needs is enough light shone on it.

Interesting looking at the comments below the Times article, am I imagining it or are the few critical voices increasingly just using the reproachful 'you're all such meanies' line?

CosmicCanary · 31/12/2017 19:18

Prikley i can only assume some people are either so damaged or so vile they lack the empathy to understand.

That poster was starting to upset and anger me so I thought it best to hide the thread.
Such a shame as the thread was really supportive and interesting.

PricklyBall · 31/12/2017 19:02

Cosmic - Wine Flowers

That other thread... The people on it displaying a complete lack of empathy towards women's needs for privacy are terrifying. They honestly come across as lacking something crucial in the empathy department. To the extent where I wouldn't like to be alone with them.

roomsonfire · 31/12/2017 18:53

I was sexually assaulted by a male GP as a child (He put his hands in my knickers to 'check my bladder' when I had a UTI)

as a result I do not go to a male GP for anything related to my genitals or smear tests etc. or near my breasts.

A male GP is OK to sort my asthma meds. Hes not OK to check my lungs for sign of infection because I'm not having a man go near me like that.

My GP surgery is fantastic about this and understands why I have requested this given my childhood assault. IF there is absolutely no way I can get a female GP then the GPs arrange for a female nurse to come in with me or occasionally I take a friend.

this situation would leave me beyond furious. There is a reason I avoid male health practitioners for intimate exams and to present me with a TIM would mean I wouldn't access important healthcare.