Feminist Fightback

And I would love to hear how you’ve come to the conclusion that trans women are women, genuinely.

If you can actually explain why you think that then it would actually be very refreshing rather than just chanting it and then shouting bigot and running away when anyone argues with you like every other trans ally does.
But you can’t expect us not to argue with your reasonings, that’s what a debate is, it’s the exact point of these boards. You could always debate back rather than just saying we aren’t being very nice.

^ yep

Great post, deadlylampshade.

Lunar

Lots and lots of the posters on here are lesbians, and many more are women who have been involved in the gay community for years. I for example was brought up with two mothers as my Mam is bisexual.
My issue with the ‘queer’ thing is not that I don’t think those things exist, of course I do, more that I don’t see why they are being equated with lgb issues. You are not oppressed for being asexual, people might not understand what you’re going on about but that’s not the same as oppression. When I was growing up we got horrific homophobic bullying from our community, we had our windows smashed in and fireworks put through our windows, eventually the council had to move us because we were so traumatised. This was not because of the way my mother identified but more the way society intentified her. She lives with a man now, she’s still bisexual but she now doesn’t get any homophobic bullying because society identifies her as straight.
Homophobia is still a real and pressing issue, one of my friends husband died when they were on holiday and he wasn’t able to the next of kin and bring the ashes home because the country didn’t recognise their marriage.
It’s not helpful when people come along and say that they are also oppressed because no one understands what it’s like to be demisexual and only want to sleep with people they are in love with and can we all fight for those issues instead.
My other issue with this whole ‘asexual’ ‘demisexual’ thing is that it centres the idea that wanting to have sex with anybody is the norm. That people are ‘sexual’ and if you don’t want to jump the bones of people you don’t have feelings for then you need a special name. It’s a very pornified way of looking at the world.

I think you would be hard pushed to find a poster on here who doesn’t think that trans people should be allowed to present however they bloody well like, in fact the more men and women playing with gender the better, but THAT DOESNT CHANGE YOUR SEX. You can’t ACTUALLY become a woman by putting on a skirt because a skirt doesn’t make a woman, being an adult human female does.

Because the majority of posters are expressing feminism which is trans and/or queer exclusionary views.

Examples:

TIMS (a label applied to trans women by trans exclusionary feminists). I may not have been here long, but if you are going to tell me that if I said 'trans women are women' that the ensuing responses would be intelligent/polite/reasoned.. I think the tone of the many many posts on that on this bit of the board are evidence enough. ('they should be allowed to be trans' actually isn't trans inclusive)
Handmaidens: A gendered slur.
"Many syllabled sexual orientation people": (That was new to me, though top marks for inventiveness whoever used that) Popular opinion here is that aromantic/asexual/poly etc aren't 'real things'. Ofc that's queer exclusion.
Snowflake: originally used by the extreme right, normally used in reference to queer people on this board.

So, as I said, I will respond etc on threads, with views that I recognise and understand are in the minority on this board. I am not here to derail anything: I am just expressing opinions in response what I am reading.

ALuner replied with, "What era or eras are you talking about? I don't recognise this as a common experience of my and my contemporaries experience of girlhood in the 70s"

It was me who said that.

BertrandRussell replied
I wonder whether it's to some extent a class thing? From my observation the aspirations of well educated middle class girls are much closer to the aspirations of their middle class male peers than those of working class girls are to their male peers. Ovaerved anecdotal only- I can't show evidence

A point with which I would entirely agree.

80% of the assistants in my department and 60% of the partners are female- in a sector which when I joined it was almost 100% male at all levels.

Divide and conquer doesn't always work.

"I get that I am in the trans/queer inclusionary minority around here."

Why on earth do you think that?

That's okay - don't worry. And thank you.

Sometimes as posts cross over, things can be misread or misinterpreted.

Nobody understands what she is on about Bert least of all Luner

And I really don't believe that. I wish I did.

I will post and respond on the various threads and you will either agree with me, or understand my pov - or not. I am not in the habit of beating my head into a brick wall. I get that I am in the trans/queer inclusionary minority around here. That's fine - I am not looking to change people's minds round here.

Especially since there are two threads going with several of the same posters and some of the same issues. Apart from the overlap points are brought from one thread to the other. Takes me quite a while to determine which thread I'm on and how my comment fits.

@HemlockSpartacus that was Lass that replied. It's all getting a bit confusing now.

My apologies Luner. I thought I had read a comment from you about your daughter being bullied by other girls while at a private school but obviously I am incorrect about that.

ALunar- I really want to understand and I don’t. Could you try again, please?

My dd did not go to a private school.

She went to the same comprehensive (well, blooming academy now) as I did.

Perhaps if you were less hostile to actual differences of opinion you wouldn't make up crap in your head and pretend I'd said it. But hey, like I tried to explain: I know my view is the minority one around here and since I assume free speech is permissible, I'll keep being the feminist I am.

You seem to think I'm here to change peoples minds and make you all trans and queer friendly. I'm not. If you have a problem, that will continue to remain your problem.

that'll be the daughter being bullied for being bi in the private girls school presumably

I thought that was Perfectly? I dunno. They just all seem to blend and blur together.

I don't understand any of ALuner 's post (11.19) at all. In fact, judging by the responses that they get from others, I don't think anyone understands their 'pronouncements'.
What is clear is that Luner doesn't like the feminists on here, doesn't like the feminist board, that everyone falls short of all of their standards in some way: many, if not most, of my IRL feminist sisters (all of whom are queer and trans inclusive). Most of my queer and trans friends are working class, and all of my daughters friends are too (that'll be the daughter being bullied for being bi in the private girls school presumably?)
They have noticed that Mumsnet was' hardly a working class endeavour either, was it?" - not sure whether this is a problem or a compliment?

I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to post on here, differences and diversity are constructive. But when people constantly attempt to derail discussions, that's when I start to question their motives.

Fortunately there is a long history of posters arriving here intent on disrupting and to date, they remain temporary short term irritants.

“ALuner replied with, "What era or eras are you talking about? I don't recognise this as a common experience of my and my contemporaries experience of girlhood in the 70s"

I thought it was Lass said that! Maybe I need to go back to bed........

Agreed. There has been some pretty obvious batton passing between some pretty odd, but odd in the same way, posters on here of late.

"What exactly IS your pov? I mean, other than wolves and biphobia I can't make out what point you want to make or discuss."

I agree with Barraker. I do have one hell of a hangover but I have RTFT and still don't know what the fuck Luner and Battle are on about. And the attacks on rad fems are simply baffling

It's got confusing hasn't it?

Someone posted

"Growing up I was always told how wrong the things i was doing or wanted were because I was a girl"

ALuner replied with, "What era or eras are you talking about? I don't recognise this as a common experience of my and my contemporaries experience of girlhood in the 70s"

So apparently ALuner and all of her acquaintances have never experienced being told that there are things they cannot or should not do or like due to being female.

Which is very lucky isn't it?

I wonder whether it's to some extent a class thing? From my observation the aspirations of well educated middle class girls are much closer to the aspirations of their middle class male peers than those of working class girls are to their male peers. Ovaerved anecdotal only- I can't show evidence

As per my previous post (which I think was on this thread) gender barriers are IMO often class related. Middle-class girls were 'allowed' to be doctors and lawyers long before working class girls (such as myself) were allowed to be lots of things, including university educated. When I grew up it was working in a factory, retail, bank clerk, teacher or nurse.

Hang on-I'm confused. What point were you responding to, ALunar?

ALuner I am friends with a lot of liberal, trans-inclusive feminists as well as radical feminists, and even some who do not call themselves feminists at all. They cover a wide range of ages, classes and cultural backgrounds, and I know from talking to them that most (if not all) have experienced plenty of instances of being told that there are things they cannot or should not do because they are female.

I would be surprised if you are truly surrounded by women who have never experienced this.

Have you ever heard of the Let Toys be Toys campaign? Or Pink Stinks? In my experience both of these campaigns are supported by rad and lib feminists alike, because both groups are aware that children are bombarded with social conditioning and want to see a change. This doesn't quite tally with your assertion that the "girls can't" message isn't widespread.

It would also mean that, if you were right, then campaigns like This Girl Can were obsolete.