Owen Jones article

He and Jeni Harvey have been arguing on Twitter. The basis of his argument seems to be "you're on the same side as right-wing men so must be wrong." You have to wonder, at what point do people who can't actually defend their position logically and who are forced to resort to childish crap like this, start to consider that maybe their position is the wrong one? She's trounced him so far.

Yy ellaoldie. How short our collective memories are that we make the same mistakes over and over

Hands up here who has never been called an idiot? Or a plonker? Dickhead? Anyone?

PrincePooPoo your posts are 👌

So would Owen Jones be attracted to transwomen because they have penis, or transmen because they present as men? Or both? In which case he is not gay then is he? Or is he?

I am not saying he should be attracted to this or that, but am just a bit confused.

I hate how its always put across as 'opponents of trans rights' as if we do not want trans people to have human rights. 'We' just disagree that men should have womens rights. Its quite different.

They have penises and also eyeliner.

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What's "brilliant" about them exactly?

Opponents of trans rights are losing, and they know it, hence the viciousness. There are brilliant trans voices emerging – like Shon Faye, Paris Lees and Munroe Bergdorf – but the media surely have a responsibility to provide a greater platform. And just as gay rights was once seen as the preserve of the “loony left”, trans people are desperately lacking in influential media allies.

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this has probably been mentioned already, but FFS all the 'brilliant voices emerging' are male. He can see that? No trans men? He doesn't give a shit about Trevor infiltrating la leche league, does he. Vaginas and milky breasts, doesn't care about that..

Owen is just a fucking parody these days. I can't believe how much I used to love this little twonk.

PrincePooPoo sums it up perfectly

Owen Jones can't be The Voice Of Gay Men anymore, anyway. Didn't he have a public tweet conversation with Paris Lees about having sex with transwomen? Therefore he's - using the new terms of being attracted to gender identity and not biology - just a boring old bisexual now.

You cannot for example say, "I am Gay because I feel gay even though I am a man and I want to have sex with women"... because that is nonsense.

*I used the above to make a point though I am aware that actually lots of straight people are now identifying as queer because their opposite-sex partner once wore lippy or a bowtie.

Straight: Wanting to have sex with someone of the opposite sex

Gay: wanting to have sex with someone of the same sex.

These things both meet their definition. You cannot for example say, "I am Gay because I feel gay even though I am a man and I want to have sex with women"... because that is nonsense. The comparisons between gay and trans are just bonkers. It's not about judging the morality of the trans person, which was the issue with homophobia.

Its about simply stating you can't not feel like something that YOU ARE NOT. All other things aside including safe spaces etc, you just cannot decide to change the definition of a word for a marginalised group to such an extent that the individuals of that group no longer fit in that group.

I do not define as a woman, therefore I am not a woman now. Nothing has taken away the oppression I suffer as a woman, I just cannot say it's due to my femaleness that I suffer it. I must have chosen to identify into that oppression.

twitter.com/rainy101/status/941591272543879168

"given that Owen has been identifying as a journalist for a number of years, it's no surprise he's supporting a group of people who are also pretending to be something they are not'

I liked this tweet:

"given that Owen has been identifying as a journalist for a number of years, it's no surprise he's supporting a group of people who are also pretending to be something they are not'

He's such a tedious, woman-hating, self-regarding bore.

I think I might put 'dickhead' one above 'plonker' in terms of levels of abuse. Kinder than 'idiot' which is getting fairly plain-speaking and straight forward.

How can he claim there is no evidence that women have been attacked in the toilet. What if they are too ashamed to tell or they got an uninterested police man, you just cannot claim this does not or will not happen.

Oh, indeed Thehairthebod. But the death and rape threats that feminists have been subjected to don't count, do they? Just bloody women making a fuss like they always do.

I don't think OJ's article will open for comments. But I do think it's worth people writing to the letters page of the Guardian to show the strength of feeling. Email address is: [email protected]

Short letters stand more chance of being published than long ones.

Also, in the grand scheme of the sort of abuse that women in the public eye are subject too, being called a 'dickhead and a freak' are fairly little league.

Where is Owen's defence of them?

A 19-year-old trans woman, Lily Madigan, was hounded after being elected women’s officer at her local Labour party. Online trolls were spurred on by the media coverage: “I’ve had people hoping I commit suicide and calling me horrid things like dickhead and freak.”

If Lily is referencing the comments that Venice Allen made under that meme re: suicide, then that is some serious twisting of words, because even though Venice might come across as a bit of a plonker, she did not say that she hopes Lily commits suicide.

Catgirl's post is brilliant. It sums up the profound misogyny at the heart of Owen's argument beautifully.

ellaodie's post is very pertinent too.

If I were Owen, I'd be wary of making analogies with gay rights. Remember the Paedophile Information Exchange? They also wormed their way into the affections of the left in the 1970s by claiming that people with a sexual interest in children had as much right to legal protection and support as people attracted to the same sex. And we know how that turned out.

I wouldn't bother reading it - this one was better www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/06/feminist-linda-bellos-women-trans-male-violence?CMP=share_btn_tw