autistic appropriation by trans women

Another autistic woman here. Wow, there are a few of us.

I used to use Tumblr quite a bit (terrible website) and one thing I noticed was the hostility to any sort of medical ‘gatekeeping’ and getting a formal diagnosis by a doctor. It is talked about along the lines of, healthcare is expensive and only accessible to the privileged, and self diagnosis is equally valid as you know yourself best. Which isn’t entirely without merit, except when you’re self dx-ing complex mental health and developmental disorders, which necessarily affect the way you think.

Also, ‘if you’re cis, ask before following’. -_- I honestly think Tumblr has played a huge role in the social contagion of the transcult, as well as the appropriation of autism, etc, as badges of specialness/excuses for bad behaviour.

Boulshired - it doesn’t affect one sex more than the other, for decades it was presumed to be a male condition and so female presentation was largely ignored which in turn affected women’s diagnosis. While female diagnoses are growing, it’s only recently that the differences of autistic presentation between sexes has been given more research time & recognition.

I work with autistic people and a lot of them seem to have either very right wing or left wing political views. They tend not to like grey areas and prefer black and white thinking. I could see some them being drawn in by these trans advocate types.

It is important especially when science and research is involved to record on conditions and biological sex, especially when the condition is more prevalent in one sex than the other. Autism does effect one biological sex more than the other, this can be seen when the condition is accompanied with learning difficulties and the condition cannot be masked, boys are still more prevalent.

@Bloopbleep I'll PM you

@Returnofthemackyesitis but those criteria were developed by clinicians working with males.

Diagnostic criteria doesn't differ for males or females. DSM or ICD criteria is the same for both sexes.

I don’t think the OP was talking about actual diagnosis but self identification and using that as a basis to claim status of representative of the female community (at least that’s my understanding). Nobody in the thread is claiming that trans people can’t be autistic or that autistic people can’t be trans, merely that there are dangers for autistic women if diagnosis of women, which via the nhs relies heavily on childhood experience (in my case requiring full parental involvement), is developed based on the childhood experiences and behaviours of natal males who only later in life identify as or transition to become women. As the diagnostic criteria for women differs to that for men, it’s not difficult to understand that it may skew the diagnosis and statistic of autistic natal women if natal men presenting as women are claiming to be representative of autistic women in general. It’s not so long ago since it was believed women couldn’t be autistic as it was a male condition, and the situation the OP describes threatens to take us back to those times.

Out of curiousity @albadross what would you use the quotes for?

Do people on Twitter need a reason to attack others? Seems like the point of the site.

There's correlation between ASC and gender dysphoria. The adult Autism service where I live had to set up specific trans groups as there were so many. This is for people on their caseload who all have a valid diagnosis of ASC.

They aren't trans people pretending to be Autistic.

referring to not too

@Autisticappropriation Sorry not to have replied to this sooner. I wasn't referring to the extreme male brain theory and apologies if my hastily, badly written post implied that. I've been diagnosed as an adult with ADHD (which is why I have an interest in both the lack of diagnosis and misdiagnosis of girls with ADHD or Autism) and working memory, putting the thoughts in my head into spoken and written words, fails me too often.

Bio-markers or brain activity might have been a better words to use in my post than brain types. I was thinking of this article when I wrote my post: Autism - it's different in girls but that may well have been debunked by now too and if that is what you were referring too, please accept my apologies.

Does anyone mind if I use a few anonymised quotes from this thread for something?

OP why on earth did a disabled man attack you?! Who was it?

I share all these concerns as a late diagnosed autistic woman who has never understood gender and has fallen into all sorts of identities because I'm easily influenced.

I hadn't thought of the effect on diagnosis for women so thank you for highlighting that to me - I'm vocal on Twitter but also scared and that's massively uncomfortable for my fairness-o-meter.

I HATE leading questions, they create an issue. Are you in pain? Yes, probably, a bit, now I come to think about it. As opposed to How do you feel?

It is religious nonsense being foisted on us and why are people not questioning it??? Grrrrr

There does now seem to be more talk among transactivists about trans people being more likely to be autistic then the rest of the population (obviously no questions of why that might be) and groups starting to be set up for autistic trans people and I'm wondering if that is a grab for (even more) power, influence and funding

I suspect it is absolutely that. Not just money, but visibility, power and the chance to take over yet another women's space.

You have my sympathy OP, as a lesbian I know what it's like to have your identity, safe spaces and community appropriated and wrecked by transactivists.

Although I was aware of the autism/trans link, I hadn't thought of all the implications of that - or that it might not just be a case of autistic people being vulnerable to recruitment by the TRAs* but also TRAs appropriating autism (linked to the trans-disabled movement?).

(*A friend of mine recently went on a training course on Islamist and far right radicalisation where they were told that autistic young men are particularly vulnerable to being groomed and recruited online - I don't know why they can't see the similarities here.)

This has also reminded me of an incident a while ago at an LGBT group where an autistic lesbian woman got thrown out for asking questions about trans stuff. She wasn't being critical or trying to challenge it in any way. She just didn't understand it and thought that the reason she was struggling to understand it was because of her autism so she should ask some questions about the bits that didn't make sense to her so that she could understand it properly. (Obviously, the real reason she didn't understand it was because it doesn't make any sense but everyone else has picked up on the social cue that we are supposed to ignore that and not think about it too hard...). A few weeks later I was present when she had a conversation with one of the (trans) organisers and she was really apologetic but also saying how upset she had been by it. The response was all about how difficult it was for trans people, what problems they have in their lives, how upsetting it is when people don't say exactly what they want them to say etc. There was just no acknowledgement that she was also a human being with her own problems, feelings etc - just total self-absorption.

There does now seem to be more talk among transactivists about trans people being more likely to be autistic then the rest of the population (obviously no questions of why that might be) and groups starting to be set up for autistic trans people and I'm wondering if that is a grab for (even more) power, influence and funding.

Some of the LGBT groups I used to attend gave out equality monitoring forms to attendees, and one used to say that we should fill in all the sections on disability/religion/caring responsibilities etc because if they could show that they had a lot of people in a particular category they might be able to get some extra funding for it. Therefore, linking themselves to autism and having events, projects or groups aimed at autistic trans people might get them more funding that was intended to benefit autistic people (or more generally for disabled people) but can instead be used to further the transactivist cause. Ditto even more power and influence if they are seen to represent a significant and particularly oppressed (trans) section of the autistic or disabled population.

I am finding this thread fascinating, if scary in its implications. Thanks for sharing so many different perspectives. I have a 13 yo dd who I increasingly suspect has Aspergers. She's always been hyper sensitive to noise, food, textures, temperatures etc. She loves rules. Recently she tells me that she hates being with the others in the playground at lunchtime as they talk and talk, and she feels she doesn't know what to say and it makes her feel extremely anxious. She goes to help out the library as much as possible. She is fine one to one with friends, but worries a lot about everything. Everything has to be in its place, she doesn't like collaboration type stuff at school as the others don't do it "right". She will restart a piece of work if she makes a small mistake. The list posted above resonated a LOT with me. Obsessions - definitely. A succession of them. If she has a bad day she will catastrophise wildly. She walked home in the snow the other day and it was like the world was about to end.

My DD is preteen so I’m going for the slowly but steadily route and exposing to the many brilliant women in her (current) chosen field of interest. Seems to be working as she’ll say “I can do this because has got to the top in this field and she’s female like me”

Scorbus can you talk to her about it? My teenaged DD isn't diagnosed, but I can see her in so many of the comments here by these lovely women in the thread. She hasn't been diagnosed because the GP didn't believe us, batted us back to the school, and the school didn't want to know. I'm considering going private, but DD is happy (more or less) with her friendship group and hobbies etc. I parent her as if she is autistic and our relationship has blossomed as a result.

Anyway, we've talked at length about the trans issue, because I want her to fully understand the complexities of the situation (well, as best as she can, at her age and capacity. I'm not sure how much I fully understand, tbh). I've been as clear as I can, and this link to autistic teen girls has been talked about, but I haven't realised the full scope of it.

She doesn't present as a "girly girl". She doesn't care about makeup, fashion, boys (unless she's shipping some obscure fanfic), etc. She likes what she likes, but she understands that she's still female regardless. Thank God.

I have a DD who is not diagnosed with autism but as having Autistic traits. Mainly because she can mask and mimic social norms from her peers. We couldn’t face fighting for a full diagnosis for various reasons.

Autism in girls and women presents very differently due to factors which include socialisation.

My DD is very fixated on her pursuits which do fall into stereotypical “male” domains. She gets very confused when —stupid— people tell her these are for boys and she went through a period of questioning whether she is actually a boy because her favourite colour is blue and she is planning a STEM career path. My DD is very vulnerable to the trans ideology and I try to prepare as much as I can but I dread her being sucked into the trans narrative of pink and blue brains.

The appropriation of the self ID brigade into trans dogma is very worrying.

Crikey, I do feel very much for what you guys are going through.

I suppose NT people who read signals, can’t tell the difference between someone who is lying and someone who just looks like they’re lying because they’re not presenting in a way the NT person understands.

BUT HCPs should absolutely know this! If you say you are autistic, then it’s all about the words.

DarthVaper I was going to say similar, about having to say how we feel, and believe what we are told. This is one of the main difficulties I have faced, mainly for my children, because they would say they weren't fine at school, but because outwardly they looked fine and happy, they weren't believed. I think it also created difficulties for me because in situations where normally I would be expected to appear distraught and not in control, I came across as unemotional and having rehearsed what I was saying (which counts for most of what I say, resulting in me being able to talk confidently about very things).
I find NT people can be tricky to communicate with because they can be very vague, feelings wise and when telling me things. I think I can be annoying when I need more details to be able to cope with situations, but with autistic friends they either give that level of detail anyway, or are understanding if someone needs more information.
When I go to the Drs I step into a calm confident role, so a couple of years ago when I was going through some tricky mental health stuff, no-one could help because my demeanour didn't match what I was telling them. It was only after my diagnosis that one gp learnt more about women and autism and was then willing to help.

'Identity' is a social construct that is gendered, socially, culturally, geographically, historically etc shaped and is alien to many autistics. My 11 year old son finds it difficult to associate with 'human' and so is taking this to a species level. Social media means that he believes he must be a 'furry' and has created an alternative 'fursona'. I am hoping that neuro-atypical can become a positive social identity for the non-social.

"I love people, but it takes a lot out of me. I also have loads of empathy (many autistic people have more than the usual amount), but don’t perform it in the same way, so it can be mistaken as having none."

That makes a lot of sense to me, Cliques. I have a friend who is autistic, and she cares very very deeply about her friends and how they feel about things, and very much wants and needs social interaction with other people. She's just not always terribly good at it because (late diagnosis, somewhat odd family) she doesn't mirror NT people's social interactions very well and either comes across as stand-offish (some of the time) or over-shares way too soon (other times). Which makes it very difficult for her - a great shame as she is a very nice person.

One incident which really brought it home to me just how different her world was from mine was when my DS (then aged 3) tried to engage her in a game of peek-a-boo, and she clearly just didn't get it.