Woman kicked out of Labour's Women's Network party because her views might make a MALE feel unsafe

Actually reading through the mail comments list, not one supports Madigan and while there's a few of the tired trope 'left eats each other' the massive majority are to the effect of - 'what? someone did nothing, said nothing, just happened to have different views, and that equals 'unsafe'? wtaf?'

And that's exactly what is needed.

When you balance this: seconds to find a rape threat, death threat and terrible things said to anyone perceived to be even faintly 'terfy' hurled all over social media by TRAs. And one of those terfs calls one of them (in a public political post no less) 'dicksplash'.

Childish, rude, but frankly if public figures are going to start melting into puddles because someone puts 'dickhead' on a meme they shouldn't be anywhere near public office. The average teacher/police officer and hospital worker gets called far worse than that to their face on a daily basis.

I was all 'fgs what's the issue?' until I saw the rape and death threats and the virulent anti woman, anti lesbian hatred from TRAs. Turfisaslur.com put me straight in 30 seconds flat. Nothing spun, no commentary added, just shown exactly what is 'normal' for that group to think and say. That behaviour is never going to stand up in the public eye, the snowflaking and safe spacing crap is never going to stand up in the public eye and real life.

Labour have lost my vote. I don't feel they value women and women's rights therefore I cannot back then. It's a shame because they have some brilliant MPs such as Jess Phillips but I just can't. It would feel like I was endorsing this madness.

Ereshkigal

I don't think it's so much about a higher standard. I think it's about putting things in such a way that even Mail commenters are saying Bloody hell, something I actually agree with the feminazis about.

Fuck that shit.

Hear Fucking Hear Elendon.

We're considered inferior to men, to the point of subhumanity, yet we're expected to behave better than men at all times.

The TRAs are playing the vulnerable, oppressed card, so those opposing need to make sure they are absolutely squeaky clean otherwise everything will be derailed with how nasty feminists are bullying transpeople

But women are people, just like men, we have rich and varied inner lives - we get angry, we sometimes do ill-advised things - the idea that we have to be purer than pure in order to be listened to is ridiculous plays right into the hands of these misogynists who happily re-write their own history instead.

It's almost as if the TRAs have got some very good PR people, something "we" need. Watching Julie Bindel and Jane Fae yesterday I was struck by how Bindel seemed to be using the "wrong" argument's, and TBH Fae I think came off much better.

I haven't see that yet, but I find it hard to believe - I've seen a an interview and a panel with each of them on, and Fae came of as abominably rude in the panel, and ineffectual in the interview. Bindel was passionate, erudite, and engaged in both the situations though. Comes to something when bloody Milo came off in a panel better than Fae!

The Mail comments section is never going to sympathise with radical feminists. We need to push back against this idea that women should be held to a higher standard, even when they think they are speaking privately. We are never going to be entirely perfect.

I should have put men’s rights ‘activism’ in heavy quotes above there.
This lobby goes way beyond what most of us would call activism and I don’t think that many people who don’t have much to do with this have understood that.

I think the strategy has to be pointing out that many people are being sold an argument that is not what it seems.

Agree with you itsall this is already everywhere in all parties and institutions. It is shocking how easily some apparently right-thinking types can be led to believe this is just an easy-to-resolve bit of previously unchallenged prejudice. And who wants to think of themselves as being prejudiced?

But actually it has to be possible to point out that these demands are plain old men’s activism, but now dressing up in the guise of being an oppressed group.

Reasonable people wouldn’t demand to appropriate the scant protections and provisions that there already are for women. They wouldn’t want to put women at increased risk, by removing sex segregated spaces. They wouldn’t want to create problems for both women and girls in general and for the many trans people who wouldn’t dream of behaving like this.

This whole thing honestly reminds me of Fathers for Justice or something. It’s all about angry men.

I fucked up there then with my punctuation spotting then, didn't I?

A bit, yeah.

The timing of the leak from the FB group was interesting though. I'm intrigued as to who passed on the info to the TRAs and when - just yesterday or beforehand/when the meme was made? The post dates from the 26th of Nov.

I fucked up there then with my punctuation spotting then, didn't I?

I know it’s poor form to speculate about individuals, but reading some of the tweets referencing fragile mental health, self-harming and suicide, I wonder if there is a personality disorder dimension to all this.

Well, Allan has admitted the post after the meme was hers, so there's no suspicion of it being someone else.

The meme was made by Ren Clithero, who AFAIK is a normal RadFem. I'm pretty sure I follow her on Twitter.

I think the whole thing was just a bit of silly bitchiness that got out of hand, but the timing was very unfortunate. .

I mean uses punctuation correctly.

In the Tweet that is under the DS meme supposedly by Venice Allen, there are no punctuation marks that I can see.

DrRadFem almost always uses punctuation in her Tweets.

Guess who very rarely uses punctuation?

it is possible the meme was made by the very person who then publicly shared it

I believe that this is the case too.

Me too.

Really agree with your posts ItsAllGoingToBe Fine

Women shouldn't have to temper our arguments so that they are perfectly composed. We shouldn't have to come across as unemotional and just logical. However, living in the sexist society that we all do, if we want to be listened to, we need to pitch our argument in the most palatable way possible.

I agree that we need a consistent strategy for engaging with the media. Are there any mumsnet posters who work in PR / political lobbying?
I think your points ItsAllGoingToBe Fine about which areas to highlight make sense. Sport, children being medicated, prisons etc

AGP men do seem to be driving the current really aggressive, misogynistic trans ideology. However mentioning them and their sexual orientation seem confuse those who aren't familiar with the rest of the issues. It can end up sounding like calling all trans people perverts, which is the polar opposite of the gender critical position.

I generally don't talk about the trans thing in person as I am so unbelievably angry that I can't talk about it in a calm way.

I use twitter to support gender critical views so that journalists and the media can see that there are people who aren't on board with the changes being made to women and children's rights. I write letters / emails when there are causes I think my input will help with.

However, I think if I could develop a palatable argument that I could speak about in person, I could probably convince a lot more people.

My DH who is gender critical (he doesn't use the description but is in his actions) can't bear me to talk about trans issues as I am so intense so I don't. I spoke about it to my brother recently and he levelled the 'emotional' thing at me too, despite saying he agreed in principle with most of what I said.

I think the biggest hurdle is come across as kind and reasonable while simultaneously waking people up to what is actually happening. No one I know in real life thinks that the changes happening will actually impact them in any way and that I am just being dramatic. They haven't researched or read up on anything though.

In the Mail comments section, although there are a few supportive ones, there is a lot of what I was talking about above. For example:

TL;DR - SJWs turn on each other in oppression olympics.

The snowflakes are turning on each other now. Goes to show how unstable these people are.

Crackpots, the whole bl00dy lot of them.

This is not what we want!

I agree that women are being held to a higher standard. You can't expect to police what other feminists do.

A man can beat his dog, starve his dog, torture his dog, and the most he'll get is a slap on the wrist. But if the dog defends itself by biting the man, it gets killed. We're dogs and should know our place.

Thanks Lisa

This jumped out at me

She has espoused anti-transgender views in the past, including posting a Facebook photo of a T-shirt with the slogan: 'Trans rights erase women's rights.'

Being seen as anti-transgender is not a good thing, and it means that any arguments you try to make can be instantly dismissed.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5173577/Feminist-kicked-Labour-Christmas-party.html

How did we get here? Because women are too fucking nice and accommodating. And men know this. And women who are in relationships with men also do the compromising and know this, especially when children are involved. I should know, I brought up three children with a man who was once described as wonderful because he knew where the towels were kept - a real keeper him.

Fuck that shit.

But aren't women bitchy anyway?

It’s maybe worth a separate thread on what tactics do work. A lot of us came round on this issue after starting off from a less educated, “I don’t really know what’s going on here but it’s wrong to be mean to trans people, so you are ignorant bullies!” perspective, and can share what worked to wake us up about what was really going on.