Advice from a mental health specialist re women's roles

But maybe activism is incompatible with shakey mental health.

I apologise less for my anxiety in a relationship where we are both heads of the household and I seem more proactive about healing or taking time before I burn out than I did in previous relationships where I fulfilled the 'female role'.

And come to think of it Doctors never addressed how much I was doing, or my isolation as a new parent, it was all focus on getting out of the house to the different toddler clubs OR establishing a routine, not ever did one doctor question that maybe having to do everything in the house, with the boy and coping with pnd alone may not be my lack of "getting out of the house" but more that my child's father was the one completely failing HIS role.

I'm pretty annoyed about this now.

Counsellors tend to focus on things their patients / clients can control and in many cases you can’t control other people just your response to them.
I don’t know but this might get be a good approach many to MH issues but it’s not a great approach to feminism or other activism.
But maybe activism is incompatible with shakey mental health.

For example if a friend of mine was bullied at work and falling apart and suffering terribly I’d advise self preservation and getting the hell out.
However the “right” this is to whistle blow and expose and fight the bullies. But not at the expense of your own sanity and family and health.

Same with feminism I think. Each of us needs to decide what to fight and what to accept. Draw our own lines. Accepting everything is not healthy but fighting everything all the time would be exhausting too

Men need to learn initiative and consequence to make the capable of functioning in the home! I think accepting this as norm is very damaging.

This with bells on. My own parents had a relationship very much like this, as did my grandparents and for my first long term relationship of 8 years with the kids dad I followed suit, not ever enjoying the martyrdom but feeling that was expected of me.

It was only after I had my daughter that I realised how devastated I would be if she stagnated for that long in a relationship with someone she didn't actually like purely because she felt she had to.

We split up shortly after that awakening after he told me under no uncertain terms how his job, hobbies and social life would always be above mine. Even to this day, years later, he treats me like I have greatly wronged him.

My relationship now is very much on an equal basis, but I do find if I'm anxious (especially this time of year) I settle into doing everything and then getting a bit overwhelmed, telling DP he's not doing "enough" and him giving me a cuddle and saying "because you don't let me" and then being relegated to a bath or the sofa every night for a week or two whilst the carpets are hoovered to death.

I ALLOW that though, and I'll be the first to admit it. I allow myself to drop into the role and then get really frustrated with myself because I'm swamped and aware that I've probably told DP not to do the laundry because I'm "about to do it" or I've rebuffed his offer to do dinner because "I've already started".

Mean definitely need to be less intimidated by taking the reins of the household but also to not see it as something deserved of a medal, because as I used to tell my ex on paternity leave "you didn't wash up for ME, you did it because you HAVE to".

Couldn't agree more op

Oh, fair enough.

I do agree that there's a tendency for (some) women to be determined to martyr themselves. But I wonder how much this is because little girls are often taught that they're only acceptable as human beings when they're sacrificing themselves, putting others first etc (?) It was certainly the case in my family and I'm still trying to rid myself of the conditioning to some extent, but I don't know how widespread it is.

If I understand this correctly, you're suggesting that a large number of individual women (coincidentally?) make poor choices and end up creating a class problem.

You don't think it's more plausible that an existing class structure puts pressure on individual women top-down?*

No, it's me phrasing that really badly.

I object to other women making the choice to be in that role, cleaner/sahm etc and then being blamed for it being a universal issue if it's their choice to do so.

I've got friends who love being the martyr and wouldn't change it, even if their spouse wanted them to work or contribute less even.

That's what I meant iyswim

but I object to other women allowing themselves to be pigeonholed by spouses and then it becoming a wider issue by default

If I understand this correctly, you're suggesting that a large number of individual women (coincidentally?) make poor choices and end up creating a class problem.

You don't think it's more plausible that an existing class structure puts pressure on individual women top-down?

I can see all sides.

BUT, if I'm ill DP (And the kids) just have to fucking up their game. And I'm pretty upfront with that.

I don't mind that I'm the driving force of my household, but I object to other women allowing themselves to be pigeonholed by spouses and then it becoming a wider issue by default

Sorry cant link but youtube 'Magic coffee table' I've used it a lot to start the ball rolling ... humour seems to help sometimes...

I dont want to trivialize your issues and as a bit of a slobby man who lives on his own now but who has lived in domestic coupledom for many years, please find a way to show your dp the magic table video on youtube... I think its Australian and is a funny and telling way to get the message across without "nagging" . If he doesnt shape up after that then go nuclear .

I know a grown man shouldn't need to be told or asked but we do seem to be more generally socialised to let others do for us ...but also without going all NAMALT i know plenty of neat freak blokes and some of my worst house shares were with fantastically lazy and untidy women .

As a counsellor myself though i would ask you what you thought your options were ..stay and put up ,stay and work to change the environment (him) , plan to leave (temp or permanent)and how acceptable each was was to you ..and look at possible consequences of each . Also explore how your dp responds to direction , does he resist , get resentful or feels positive in being directed ...which i know is not ideal as it infantalises him and still leaves you doing the mind work .
This is an issue that comes up time and again in my couples counselling and sadly rarely gets resolved easily without some shock tactic ultimatums ...and i could so kick the arses of the entiltled little princes i come across, you should see the look of outraged hurt when it is suggested that doing the bins is not desrving of a medal .
.

Fine post, PricklyBall.

colouringin I've found NHS mental health services hugely misogynistic. Staff believed what my manic delusional husband said about me and our marriage, over what I was saying

That's interesting - it suggests it is a misogyny thing rather than simply believeing everyone else over the patient (which could be an alternative explanation if it's a woman as the patient, which I am more familiar with).

I find it really worrying that psychiatric nurses and HCAs (ie. the professionals patients are most likely to have most contact with) don't necessarily have any psychological training or knowledge, and so can blithely medicalise everything and uphold the status quo and enforce that on their patients without stopping to think about it*. It's even more worrying if actual psychologists and therapists are doing this too.

Once upon a time, someone saying the psychiatric system is all about power and control would have had me nodding faux-sympatheticlly and quietly passing them the tinfoil... But the overall system does seem to be about getting people to pipe down and return to their allocated role in society. An obvious aspect of this in the UK at present involves pushing people to be economically productive. And there is of a course a whole history of psychiatry being used to control women.

I hope this isn't derailing your thread OP, it's just I think you've hit on an important issue.

It surprises me there isn't more discussion of this on MN, especially the mental health board.

I have had a similar experience - lots of therapists over the years (male & female) insinuating I should be more flexible, lower standards etc. It's hard to find the right person but worth breaking ties and finding someone you really can work with.

I would go against the suggestion of switching to a male therapist, as IME misogyny/patriarchy is ingrained and while there may be a superficial understanding, the fundamental concept of women saying 'no' alludes some male therapists. I have had this time and again, sadly.

My current therapist I've seen for two years and choose her as she set herself out as a feminist from the off. There's been one off situation where it was suggested during one of my many rants about the inequality in our relationship that DH being a 'good provider' off set other responsibilities but she apologised immediately when realised what had been said.

As annoying as it is, it's worth shopping around to find the right person. They do exist.

The problem is that it's all about who takes responsibility. As long as you're trying to get him to take responsibility then it's actually you still ultimately taking responsibility.

And then every gain is fragile because any time he likes he can drop the ball because you both fundamentally believe it's your ball.

I was taken by surprise when I had my children. I reflexively took the brunt of it all for several years and then I looked around and saw that I was exhausted and ill and had somehow become an unperson in the family and I got very angry.

I said to my DP: it's up to you to decide whether you want to behave like an adult or a child. If you're a child, please leave because I have 2 children already and I never signed up for 3. I'm not going to explain what I mean because you know exactly what I mean.

He did (despite his best efforts to pretend incomprehension) know what I meant and he did start taking responsibility and actually he had a whole lot of lightbulb moments about his own internalised misogyny as a result of all this. But even if he hadn't I knew I'd be happier in the long run with him leaving than having to live with someone who was happy to exploit me and who didn't believe my humanity counted as much as his. And who was teaching this to my children.

I don't know what sort of middle way is possible.

God this is all so familiarly depressing.
I concur with wifework
I really don't know how you get them to see it.
And your counsellor sounds fucking shit, even if that's her view, she should not impose it on you.
I know this might sound counter productive,but have you thought about a male counsellor?
I have one and I previously had a woman and I found him a lot better at not dismissing things I felt. Now that is most likely just his personality and nothing to do with gender, But might be worth a try

But maybe give it to him?

I've heard you might end up getting a divorce if you read Wifework..

Hi dooba I have done nothing lasting, but I have had successful periods.
The most common tactic is:
Raise awareness that a task must be done by dividing and commanding.
"I'll clear the table - you can do the washing up"
or the choice:
"Do you want to clear the table or do the washing up?"
This unfortunately means I have the added task of needing to direct everything.
Another tactic is I say:
"shall we clear up?"
And he'll say "what needs doing?"
And I ask "what can you see?"
him "I don't know"
Then I explain in detail so he knows better next time, still annoying but I'm playing the long game.

I've not actually read it but there is a book called "Wifework" about this. Maybe someone else can say if it any good?

It is really depressing that we keep hearing this from all sorts of people. I had something in the same vein from a relationship counsellor once. I just said there was no way that would sit with my values and if that was the only route to a good relationship I'd just have to get divorced. Not sure if there's a good way to take a similar stand with a MH counsellor. Part of the issue seems to be that you can't actually change your DH, so in a sense she's right - the only route to a calm time at home with your DH is if he changes (which is presumably outside the scope of your session) or if you accept it. But I think her instance that you accept that narrow scope is quite damaging.

Definitely head on over to the facilitated men threads doobadodo! There are lots of women thinking along the same lines as you.