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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Yay! I've finally found my gender label

115 replies

QuentinSummers · 11/12/2017 18:55

AFAB non-binary femme apparently. Who's with me??!!
www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/d3x8m7/five-queer-people-on-what-femme-means-to-them

OP posts:
slightlyglittermaned · 11/12/2017 22:21

So, what's different about "non-binary" "agender", "zie/zir", and "Ms"?

Femme and butch are very longstanding terms. I'm assuming they would sound pretty boringly normal to most on this thread. Others are newer coinages (not all, I see a fair few I was using as a spotty teen/20 yr old).

@PricklyBall This is very nicely put.
"However, there is no real fact of the matter about being "gender fluid" - it's just a narrative to use as short hand to describe their feelings. It's the reification (to use a fancy philosopher's word) of gender I object to - the idea that gender, which is actually an oppressive political system used to keep women (and men - but in terms of sheer amount of damage, women primarily) in a restrictive set of boxes. It's not a real part of the natural world."

What I don't see is how these 5 individuals are doing more than inventing shorthand in this article to describe their feelings about gender restrictions and boxes they dislike. Some inadvertently comic perhaps, but others quite touching.

QuentinSummers · 11/12/2017 22:15

*femaleness is transphobic. Interesting my autocorrect insists femaleness should be gentleness

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 11/12/2017 22:14

We were all gender non-conforming as well. I had a shaved head, DMs and army surplus while my male friends were all wearing make up (and a few dresses). No one cared.

It's not the non-confirming or the trans stuff, it's the legislative changes and pretending gender should be a protected characteristic for every single special person. Rather than sex, sexuality and actual characteristics that aren't bullshit.

QuentinSummers · 11/12/2017 22:14

What sleighbellend said. (Great username btw).
I am sometimes bored but then I get the absolute rage that women need a label to be completely normal and like lipstick, yet feel they will be seen as valid.

One of the contributors says "Our culture hates femininity, calls it weak. Our culture is inept at nurture and care, terrified of vulnerability and softness—all things that are squarely in the femme’s handbag. To indulge in femme culture is actually to be brave, and to have strength. So when I say I am femme, I am saying that I try to live my life bravely."
Call femininity/femme being female and I could get behind that sentiment. But woman is now the preserve of men and gentleness is transphobic. So Yes, sometimes it's boring but it's also rage inducing to have my material reality reduced to a costume (appearing female) and unspeakable transphobia (the messy biology bits)

OP posts:
LangCleg · 11/12/2017 22:13

Mumoftwoyoungkids - ha! You did Ecce Romani. I did Cambridge Latin. Can still remember the first line now... Caecilius est in horto. Poor Caecilius. He got covered by lava in Pompeii. His gardening days were done.

sleighbellend · 11/12/2017 22:05

I have yet to hear a definition of non-binary (sorry, ‘enby’ Hmm) that couldn’t be just as easily summed up with ‘I have a personality.’ It’s just ‘I’m not like other girls’ for people trying to be woke.

WidowWadman · 11/12/2017 22:00

Aren't you all getting a bit bored by now of the perpetual trans and enbie bashing? It's not only unkind, but just mindnumbingly repetitive.

hipsterfun · 11/12/2017 21:59

I blame the parents. Back in the day, (normal, good) parents quite rightly took the piss out of teenagers and young people. It’s not unkind, in fact it’s quite the contrary. Can you imagine trying to test the world, break boundaries and be subversive only to be met with... no resistance at all? Or worse: concern, encouragement and understanding? Disaster!

MrsTerryPratchett · 11/12/2017 21:52

25 is the new 18

Nuffaluff · 11/12/2017 21:46

But these people aren't teenagers are they? They're all in their twenties at least.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 21:41

Most of us were Mrs

Oh the Angst. And how we mocked those two years younger. Idiots.

PricklyBall · 11/12/2017 21:36

But enough about me, what did you think of my latest book Wink

MrsTerryPratchett · 11/12/2017 21:35

Thing is I was just as self absorbed and narcissistic as a youth. As were all my friends. Into body modification or music or droning on about French cinema or being a goth/greebo/punk all very seriously.

But we didn't think it made us oppressed (in fact most people I knew were fighting for others, in the Anti-Nazi League or whatever) and we certainly didn't think we were going to change any laws in order to affirm our identities as punks!

We did know that our friends who were black or gay suffered actual discrimination which needed to be addressed. Fearing for their lives stuff, police harassment. Not 'literal violence'. Literal violence.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 11/12/2017 21:25

I thought I had cornered the market on egotism (that's very interesting but can we talk about me now?) but that lot beat me hands down (without actually being in any way interesting)

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 11/12/2017 21:21

That’s the one Iggi. Flavia was a most “energetic” girl. She ran around the aforementioned tree one time! Not surprisingly Flavia did not get herself a husband unlike “Lucky Cornelia”.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 11/12/2017 21:18

Catgirl - that is all a bit of a mouthful. Can I not just call you PrincessSand for short?

Ps As a self proclaimed stunningly attractive 26 year old I think you should take up modelling. If they don’t immediately let you on the cover of Vogue (muttering something ridiculous about the wart on the end of your nose) then you can accuse them of hate crime! And explain that warts on noses are nobodies business but your own!

Iggi999 · 11/12/2017 21:16

Ah Mumof that fair takes me back.. in pictura est puella Romanae (or something like that).
I digress.
We need to laugh at this stuff sometimes, if we didn’t laugh we’d just cry.

catgirl1976 · 11/12/2017 21:13

I have identified as 26, stunningly attractive and dripping with money. It's fabulous. I also now have a unicorn.

You must all address me as 'Princess of the sand duney coast, mother of cats and Queen of the Starbucks queue'. If you don't it is literal violence.

This stuff makes me so angry. Women being erased and silenced whilst idiots clasp their hands and wank themselves off over the bravery

It's regressive, homophobic, misogynistic horseshit

Nuffaluff · 11/12/2017 21:09

We are feminists on a feminist discussion board.
We are rolling our eyes at the idea that gender even exists. Let alone that there are umpteen different types of it.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 11/12/2017 21:08

Ok -I’ll give an example - Me! I “identify” as a woman. I was AFAB, I have female genitals, I have given birth, I happily call myself by a female name, I see myself as a woman, I AM a woman.

BUT - I wore a dress to dh’s Xmas Do on Friday night. It was the first time I had worn a dress or skirt in months. Normally I like to wear trousers as 1. My legs get cold. 2. I cycle to work and dresses are not very practical and 3. I hate the static feel of tights (and see 1 for not wearing tights).

I probably have more female friends than male friends but I work in a very male dominated profession doing a job that many instinctively think of as a “man’s job”. (By which I mean it pays well and involves hard sums and no caring whatsoever!)

I have worn make up less than 10times in 2017.

Sometimes when with extended family I like to hang out in the kitchen doing “womanly things” as described in the article. Sometimes I prefer to watch the sport with “the men”. It depends on the sport. And who is in the kitchen. And what is being cooked.

In fact with my extended family sometimes we are all watching the sport. With occasional shouts of “shit! The dinner!” When the smell of burning becomes impossible to ignore. Sometimes we all hang out in the (far too small) kitchen and chat.

I regularly shave my armpits. I shave my legs when I can be arsed. I have my bikini line done twice a year before holidays.

Does all that give me some fancy interesting title?

No! Of course not! It makes me a (not even particularly interesting - my main interests are Hard Sums, a few minority sports and gossip from Eastenders) woman. Just not one who fits exactly into a completely ridiculous stereotype as to what a “woman” is.

I remember doing Latin at school. The books were supposed to be set about 100 AD. We found it hilarious that Marcus and Sextus spent all their time climbing trees and fighting whilst Cornelia and Flavia sat under trees and occasionally sang softly. And yet we seem to have people who think that is exactly what men and woman are!

PricklyBall · 11/12/2017 21:08

My best stab at explaining this is that we all tell narratives and invent stories about ourselves to make our way through the world. When I was younger, I would have days when I couldn't be arsed and dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, and days when I felt like "performing femininity" (and it always did feel like a performance to me - I used to describe it as strings, smoke and mirrors). A young person nowadays might choose to conceptualise the same experiences as being "gender fluid" - the jeans and t-shirt days are "boy-mode", the "performing femininity" days are "girl-mode".

However, there is no real fact of the matter about being "gender fluid" - it's just a narrative to use as short hand to describe their feelings. It's the reification (to use a fancy philosopher's word) of gender I object to - the idea that gender, which is actually an oppressive political system used to keep women (and men - but in terms of sheer amount of damage, women primarily) in a restrictive set of boxes. It's not a real part of the natural world.

slightlyglittermaned · 11/12/2017 21:05

Yes yes got that. And?

BrandNewHouse · 11/12/2017 21:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slightlyglittermaned · 11/12/2017 20:56

Yes, I do find it "unusual" (and tbh, I'd say that particular one comes across as someone I'd find a bit too drama-llama for my tastes). But there are others that I find fairly unremarkable - some of the slang people are rolling eyes at has a specific meaning and history.

slightlyglittermaned · 11/12/2017 20:50

Okay @BrandNewHouse, have a crack at explaining it to me then. I haven't called anyone a Trump supporter, and am generally fairly sympathetic to concerns about the GRA etc. Still don't get what you're saying here.