Which religion treats women the worst?

It does not matter which man written book we use as an example, they are all fairy stories used to control people. Some are worse than others - some pointless in 2017 - the Church of England for example. Some are still blighting women’s lives - laws against contraception and abortion for example.

All best ignored and laughed at

Asmen is an idiot. It's official.

I make a judgement about people's religion from the actions of the people I meet.
Clearly, from the many Muslim people I know or have known personally over the years, Islam is a religion of peace. They follow their religion in a peaceful way and don't force it on other people, but have been open to questions.
One of the reasons I'm not religious (used to be) is because of the way some people use religion as an excuse to do terrible things.
I am not a scholar of the Qu'ran so feel unable to comment. However, I am aware of hate filled websites claiming to know all the answers. Someone I know put a link to one on Facebook once. Needless to say, I am definitely not friends with that person anymore.

@AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior This thread is an opportunity for individuals of all backgrounds to engage in a civil discussion.

Firstly you are not an authority on Islam if Muslim women who know their scriptures are giving clarity on matters relating to Islam this should be welcomed, clearly you seem to be disappointed. @MumChou extended a message of peace (25:64) it is clear that you do not wish to offer peace. Furthermore you distorting and misinterpreting the verses of the Quran.

You are citing the typical allegations against Islam to state that the Holy Quran verses have been abrogated is an utterly baseless claim. The Holy Quran declares itself to be perfect at the outset [2:3] and says again and again that no one would ever be able to compile even a single Chapter like any of its Chapters [2:24 -25]
Furthermore, and so as to leave no doubt on what the Holy Quran itself claims, it says itself that if it was not the Word of God surely there would be many contradictions in it.
[4:83] Will they not, then, meditate upon the Qur’an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.
The claim made that the Holy Quran has itself declared that some of its verses have been abrogated by others...later verses abrogating earlier ones etc. is totally unsustainable.
The Holy Qur’an clearly forbids the use of force for the spread of the faith and directs its propagation through its inherent qualities and the good example of the Muslims. Do not be misled by the notion that in the beginning the Muslims were commanded to take up the sword. That sword was not taken up for the spread of the faith, but in self-defence against the enemies and for the purpose of establishing peace and security. It was no part of the purpose of taking it up to have recourse to coercion in the matter of faith.

Please do not distort the teachings of Islam especially the scriptures of other peoples Faiths.

@AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior This thread is an opportunity for individuals of all backgrounds to engage in a civil discussion.

Firstly you are not an authority on Islam if Muslim women who know their scriptures are giving clarity on matters relating to Islam this should not welcomed, clearly you seem to be disappointed. @MumChou extended a message of peace (25:64) it is clear that you do not wish to offer peace. Furthermore you distorting and misinterpreting the verses of the Quran.

You are citing the typical allegations against Islam to state that the Holy Quran verses have been abrogated is an utterly baseless claim. The Holy Quran declares itself to be perfect at the outset [2:3] and says again and again that no one would ever be able to compile even a single Chapter like any of its Chapters [2:24 -25]
Furthermore, and so as to leave no doubt on what the Holy Quran itself claims, it says itself that if it was not the Word of God surely there would be many contradictions in it.
[4:83] Will they not, then, meditate upon the Qur’an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.
The claim made that the Holy Quran has itself declared that some of its verses have been abrogated by others...later verses abrogating earlier ones etc. is totally unsustainable.
The Holy Qur’an clearly forbids the use of force for the spread of the faith and directs its propagation through its inherent qualities and the good example of the Muslims. Do not be misled by the notion that in the beginning the Muslims were commanded to take up the sword. That sword was not taken up for the spread of the faith, but in self-defence against the enemies and for the purpose of establishing peace and security. It was no part of the purpose of taking it up to have recourse to coercion in the matter of faith.

Apostasy is not a crime punishable by death in Islam

It’s a crime punishable by death in some states where religion and politics are too close. That’s the problem. It doesn’t matter what the Koran actually says about it if you’re in death row in a Pakistani jail or being macheted to death in public in bagladesh for it...

The laws in those countries which say they are based in islam or Christianity or frankly most religions are what affects people’s daily lives, or ends them. Same situation in America - a woman unable to access planned parenthood for a mammogram because religious protesters have closed all her nearby clinics - she doesn’t care that it’s not sanctioned specifically in the bible, only that in her lived experience, she is being negatively affected by Christianity.

A literal following being just that. For Christianity it’d be A Christian fundamentalist and evangelical hermeneutical style approach. Rather than a more allegorical approach. Which is all bonkers anyway given that the contents of the bible were decided on by committee at the council of Nicea. The Koran is different in that the bulk of it has a more singular history (plus the Hadith expansion packs I suppose..)

Telling people ‘they’re doing it wrong’ ... well that’s ironic. Given as it’s the reason Isis use for slaughtering those who feel they don’t follow the ‘correct’ version. I don’t really care what kind of religious belief people follow as long as it doesn’t impose on the legal or societal rights of others. Secularity would be my aim.

I would wonder if it’s true that more and more people are seeking out more fundamental approaches. Data I’ve seen says that as a society becomes more educated and liberal the number of people holding such beliefs drop. There will always be those who struggle with internal definitions of morality (from Satre onwards) and the complexity of life - those people may well seek out a literalist religion where they are told what to think and do.

The state of women is dire in many Muslim countries and they experience the same kind of discrimination that we do here - but this is not because of Islam but the abuse of power by men, contravening the teachings of Islam.

Apostasy is not a crime punishable by death in Islam- the Quran has rules for those who leave the faith, rejoin, leave again, rejoin ... which clearly would be irrelevant if apostates had been killed. The Quran also states 'there is no compulsion in religion' which really is unequivocal in its meaning. It follows therefore, that blasphemy is not a crime and this is often a charge levelled to settle personal scores or incite violence to a political end. Take Pakistan where Christians, Ahmadi Muslims, Shia Muslims... are with tragic regularity accused of blasphemy and attacked or killed. The idea that God can be offended is a laughable notion pushed by religious clerics to further their own ends. People's religious sentiments can be offended but when they are we are instructed in the Quran to respond by 'saying 'peace'' (25:64)

I'm off to look up that prof!

I think you're swathing right across a whole host of issues there Anatidae of which you appear to have limited knowledge, and draw inferences from them to judge Islam from.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'literal' following of your religion...this is problematic due to the Quran being written in classical Arabic and this has not translated well - we only really work from interpretations, from which conflicting views may be drawn from it's use of diction for instance.

It's also quite odd where we find posters with no avowed spiritual life or practice informing those that do how they are mistaken or 'doing it' wrongly i.e. at all. Not that those posters shouldn't have an opinion at all - just expect to be ignored sometimes or certainly hold totally differing views.

Op is talking crap, she is chopping and changing her story about her non existent friend and just wants to slag of Islam. More and more people are looking for a religious framework and are choosing more orthodox religions, whether it be Islam Christianity or Judaism. Bashing these religions makes zero difference to those who want to follow them. Women are obviously not mistreated given how many women choose to follow then. Granted, some men oppress women, that is the case in all societies all over the world, religion is simply used to justify the crap some men do. Btw Saudi Arabia is incredibly sexist, half of their rules in relation to women have zero basis in Islam, same as the Christians in America who oppress women.

Kinkrules do you know all my opinions love?

Even when you get some nice groovy cult it always seems to end up being all about men having access to / controlling women and girls.

So maybe all of the ones that have any men in is a better answer.

Not read thread.

All of them.

Especially the more fundamentalist branches of all of them.

If Muslims carry out atrocities against women they are acting against the teachings of Islam.

I disagree. your own interpretation of the religion is clearly one in which you treat others with respect. But it’s unlikely to be a literal following of your religion. Look at all the Shi’a/Sunni violence in the world, one lot telling the other lot they aren’t proper Muslims and killing them for it. Sufi s seem to get a lot of abuse as well - clearly some Islamic teachings somewhere aren’t adding g up or everyone would be agreeing?

But just as in Christianity, if you are a literalist follower of the religion then you’d be accepting some pretty unpleasant beliefs. All the Isis stuff is justified by them textually. The awful things westboro Baptist church do is justified by them textually. If you follow the bible literally you’d be killing people for wearing mixed fibre clothing for example.

Modern, decent people (like yourself) tend not to be literalists. A sensible Christian knows that the rules set out in Leviticus are probably ok for keeping a war band hygienic and safe in the desert a couple of thousand years ago but not relevant today. Ditto your average sensible British Muslim takes on board the charity/ treating people decently bits of the religion and glosses over the nastier bits. Lot giving his daughters to the mob. Mohammed marrying a child. Infidels to be sword. All rather unpleasant, and not done in today’s world. And of course all things decent Muslims/Christians would be aghast at, but all justified by their texts.

I must say as well that criticism of an ideology isnt criticism of a person holding it. I can say that I disagree with aspects x and y of both Christianity and Islam while still respecting people’s right to hold a belief. I respect yours and your right to hold it, while being very critical of the ideology itself.

Would that your cynicism dear windy extend to the neoliberal warmongering politicians who use the trope ‘oppressed Muslim women’ to further war ambitions on Muslim resource/geopolitically rich nations.

@Anatidae & @Twofishfingers You are correct in saying that women from all backgrounds are ill treated and abused and Muslim women may not be immune from such abuse. However neither Islam or Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) is to be blamed for the atrocities and injustices. If Muslims carry out atrocities against women they are acting against the teachings of Islam.

Who pays this professor's salary is the first question that jumped into my head. I know I'm cynical but I've learned to be.

I'd think the OP is being fairly disingenuous - the enquiry isn't about balancing the qualities of formal religions - it appears to be a bash at Islam, and anything/one who offers any notion that doesn't fit with her world vision.

In our household we are and are treated equally and with loving respect. Nothing about the horrors recorded here. Sorry to disappoint.

You really should get out more and from behind a computer screen. imho

Esposito, an Islamic affairs professor at Georgetown University and a rare Western scholar who can write about Islam with a clear head, estimates that 70 percent of the savings in Saudi banks are owned by women

How can he possibly know that?

In the UK, you can look up the Land Register and find out who owns land. If it is owned by a UK company you can look up who owns the shares. If the shares are owned by a trust or a non UK company you won't get much further.

So far as bank accounts how can you possibly know who holds them in any jurisdiction?

Pretty much all religion is patriarchal. Christianity in the form of western state secularism is right up there.