Personal pronouns

I am happy to use pronouns chosen by a person.
In the way that I will use your chosen name.

But I won't call you a woman if you born a man or vice versa. You are a trans man/woman.

That sound grim rogue. I am sympathetic to anyone with a genuine disorder but I am starting to wonder what proportion of TIMs are actually basically co-opting other people into taking part in a sexual fantasy?

I had a horrible experience last week with a casual male friend. He arrived at our weekly hobby in women's sexy clothing. I genuinely like him so chatted to him as normal and didn't mention it. I was hoping he was either just wearing a dress or, he was one of the harmless tims who just want to get on.

No such luck. Although he didn't say anything wrong his body language was totally off. He was almost doing a courtesy as he was talking, twirling his hair, and he had combed his hair over his eyes so he was peeking out behind it seductively. As awful as it sounds, I felt he was acting like a seductive very young child. It's hard to describe, but it was dirty. And he knew it.

It made me incredibly uncomfortable and by the time I got home I was furious and feeling violated. There is no way he will get the opportunity to do that to me ever again. I won't ever call him her or she. I won't ever share a bathroom with him and if the choices are be violated or be called a terf I'll choose the latter.

And wow there have been some nasty posts on this thread. Its funny, how feminists are the ones accused of being horrible and abusive, when its so often 'the other side' who are the nasty ones. Infact, I have only ever seen actual transphobia posted on this site once, and it was deleted very quickly and near everyone on the thread posted that it was unnecesary.

I use pronouns when speaking in real life to trans people. I see it as similar to using someones chosen name rather than their 'real' name. I don't see the point in upsetting someone unnecessarily when its easily avoided. However, none of the trans people I know are the kinds to be having shitfits about someone getting their pronouns wrong anyway. I may feel differently if I knew one of the twitter narcisists in real life..

I refuse to do so online 'en masse' out of principle mainly. Though probably out of habit I would use 'she' pronouns if talking about my family member who is trans.

I agree.

If they were respectful and didn’t make a meal out of it.

I don't think it's possible to do this respectfully. The whole thing, to me, is like black face.

and if you want to play bad relationship top trumps you better bring your A game. you have no idea what my life has been like

How pathetic and puerile. I was explaining how I felt you were approving of deeply emotionally abusive behaviour such as victims of domestic abuse frequently experience, not playing "top trumps".

i used this vernacular to convey my assertion that none of you would speak to a transgender person face to face the way you do here.

If it was your child? And it would hurt them? Sure I’d use the pronouns they preferred.

If they were respectful and didn’t make a meal out of it.

But believe me, a man identifying as a woman and was milking it would absolutely get the pronouns I need to make him understand I know he’s a man.

And the only reason he wouldn’t is if I perceived a threat.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Ex, how exactly does your non-binary child differ from a bog standard gender non-conforming child of the same sex?

But you just happily called them 'Grandmother' - because in English, that is the word for a person who is your parent's mother - there's no point being offended if it's factually accurate, and a normal, non-insulting word. But I wouldn't call any one of them grandmother or granny if they want to be called nana or grandma. It doesn't matter if there is a point to being offended or not because in fact they do get offended. I would think it rude to deliberately call them something that would offended them. I get offended if someone calls me nanny, I'm not a goat but I know women who will tell you that is what they like being called.

*trans not treads.

i’m out. there is no debate to be had here.

I agree. If you are the parent of a treads child your conflict is profound.

The separation that needs to take place is that of the transactivists bonkers ideology, and the parent of a child who is gender confused.

The sticking point for me, is you would not have the latter without the former.

I am attacking the disease, not the symptom.

and i am talking about a transgender person you might happen across in the normal course of your life, not someone you might encounter at a rally or demo. i get that bigotry can go both ways.

i still maintain that the deliberate misgendering, flat refusal to acknowledge someone’s personal pronouns and assertion that transgender women are overwhelmingly dangerous is not a good use of a feminist board. erosion of women’s rights when it has taken so much work by so many determined people to attain those rights is a travesty and a tragedy. i do understand that, believe it or not.

and if you want to play bad relationship top trumps you better bring your A game. you have no idea what my life has been like. i am not going to stop trying to make my child’s life a safe and happy one.

i’m out. there is no debate to be had here.

eresh i’m sorry you were in an abusive relationship. of course that influences your reaction to my words.

but, you see, my reaction to the unpleasant words used here against transgender people is influenced by my child being non-binary. i defend their right to be who they are until my last breath.

i’m sure that can be conceded, at least?

I don't really understand why a trans person would be so upset by the pronoun being used incorrectly, after all they are going through a process and it must be perfectly normal that some people are going to be confused and stump for the wrong pronoun.

@norahnamechange , that's exactly how I feel. Whenever I read whatever hateful nonsense the transactivists have come out with and the red mist descends, I have to remind myself that if you only listen to the outliers of any group, you'd get a pretty warped idea of what that group is about.

exWife, regardless of the language you use your meaning is very clear. You think none of us would make a fuss about using wrong pronouns in the face of a transgender person insisting on them. And you are probably right, transgender activists can be very threatening, and women are brought up to comply with threatening people. This isn't cowardice, it's self preservation. Also it's pretty easy to avoid using a pronoun at all when talking directly to someone

Don't patronise me, I've been gaslighted in an abusive relationship and this feels exactly the fucking same. What you are doing is sneering at that. Sneering at women who feel coerced into not expressing themselves and forced to lie. Fucking hell indeed.

You appear to approve of abusive behaviour.

i think we can all stop pretending that you don’t understand hyperbole and intent and instead are shouting about me wanting women to shit themselves.

i used this vernacular to convey my assertion that none of you would speak to a transgender person face to face the way you do here. i don’t think NO WOMEN SHOULD LITERALLY SHIT THEMSELVES BECAUSE A MAN WANTS THEM TO is a very robust argument to the contrary.

fucking hell.

I don't think I've ever really been in the situation but if I were confronted by a trans person I would attempt to use the pronoun they were trying to present.

Not because of any kind of gesture of kindness on my part, but merely because it makes my life easier in that moment.

I suppose I'm saying there's no need to take matters to the extreme. If we are uncomfortable that somebody we identify as a man wants to be called a woman I think it's ok to an extent until as others have said, the gesture becomes mandatory.

Deciding whether to be called 'Granny' or 'Nanna' by your grandchildren is really not the same. More similar would be asking to be called 'Mum' and then complaining when your grandchildren weren't too keen.

I wonder how many of you would say this to a transgender person’s face? all prissy and ‘no i am SHE and you are HE’ and deliberately misgendering?

Interesting. Because I wonder how many tims would say the same abusive shit to men in real life as they do to women?

because i’d bet my last quid that you would shit your pants and do as asked rather than having the courage of your convictions

Do you think that men would shit their pants? Or just women?