I now have chest pain!

I think if you drew a venn diagram with transactivists in one circle and autogynephiles in the other circle, they would be practically on top of each other.

Not all trans people are transactivists. Datun means something specific by the term, and women here understand what she means when she's using it. It's pretty simple. Transactivists are the ones who want women's rights, not human rights.

Datun you asserted

The reason why transactivists hate women is because they, and the cohort they represent, are autogynephiles.

and

Their very reason for being relies entirely on viewing women through a misogynistic lens. On women strictly adhering the gender stereotype of compliance, obedience, physical appeal and never-ending sex on tap.

Your prejudiced assumptions and theorising come in when you assume the above just because someone is a TRA.

Especially when you consider that the bar seems to be very low for what causes a trans person to graduate to becoming a TRA.

A bit like the observation someone once made that if a woman does anything to distinguish herself from a doormat people assume she is a feminist, the moment a trans person does similar they become a trans rights activist. The moment they argue forcefully in an online discussion or, say, makes a complaint to a workplace because a worker refused to use their preferred terminology and/or misgendered them, they become a TRA it seems.

No amount of linking to articles explaining what AGP is and what its characteristics are, entitles you to assume the stuff above on no other basis that someone is a TRA.

overnightangel - I can't speak for OP, but I would guess it may be because lesbianism is under direct attack from transactivists.

Lesbians are being told they are transphobic unless they embrace the "female penis" and consider pre-op transwomen with penises, beards, and male bodies, as sexual partners.

This whole thing is becoming so disturbing to me now, that I actually talked to my extended family about it at the weekend. I was quite surprised that they got it straight away - but had no idea of this GRA going through... They went into the "that can't happen, can it?" shock.

“ am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter”
What has that to do with anything ?

Maryz

I agree. Online vitriol is reserved for feminists, because they keep calling it out.

But it’s any woman in real life. Any woman will be sacrificed without compunction

Thanks so much datun, looks like I've got a lot of reading to do! You've made it all make alot more sense for me anyway so that's very much appreciated.

hollowtree

Believe me, that’s no surprise. It’s an absolute bloody minefield.

You will get it though. Keep reading. I’m happy to answer any questions, as often as you like, however daft/basic you think they are.

Most people who come to the conclusion that they need to get their head around this are utterly confused by all the acronyms. And the lack of logic.

You probably know this, but one of the first premises is that the trans-ideology is inherently sexist. A man can’t be feminine. In order to be feminine, he has to become a woman. Because feminine belongs in the ‘woman’ box. Likewise masculine belongs in the man box, and a woman who wants to be masculine is therefore a man.

It rigourously reinforces gender stereotypes.

That’s the initial feminist disagreement.

The next thing is that the government want to support a law allowing self identification of wanting to be transgender.

At the moment you have to be 18, have lived in your preferred gender for two years and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

The government wants to eliminate all three criteria and make it an administrative exercise. Downloading a form off the Internet.

Which means anyone, any time, can change their sex in a matter of days. Legally.

Which then gives rise to the erasure of sex based protections for women. Because the legal definition of woman no longer relies on your actual sex.

(Strewth, i’ve been talking about this on here for several years, and writing it out like that again, strikes me afresh as absolutely insane).

Two points.

1. It's not just feminists that TRAs hate and attack - take the recent TopShop case; that's a man trying to use trans rights to deliberately upset young girls. Many trans issues are like that, no "checking privilege" needed. Ditto for sports, for prisons, for refuges - transactivists are directly attacking ordinary women, not feminists, not activists, not the people who are trying to fight back.

1. (I recognise the discussion has moved on, but I hate seeing dodgy statistics unchallenged). With relation to "13 per cent of Americans are black ... black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides" - I bet if those figures were drilled down, we would find that the areas with high homicide rates (inner cities, poorer areas, gang districts) will have a much higher than 13 per cent non-white population. Stats can be manipulated.

Thanks datun, I'm still pretty confused about the whole debate TBH, I've seen loads of trans stuff on MN but no idea what any of it means!

hollowtree

Trans does mean transgender. TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. A term trans activists use against anyone who disagrees with even the smallest part of the ideology. As it was originally radical feminists who identified the underlying misogyny in the ideology, the acronym was applied to them.

Now it’s applied to anyone. Although, it continues to be used largely against women. If men complain, they don’t tend to be called terfs, threatened or abused.

You could be having a fairly civil conversation with someone about the ideology, but as soon as you say something that contradicts it, in any way, you will be called a terf and blocked, told to fuck off, or threatened. Either way, the conversation will end. The trans-activists hashtag is #nodebate.

Disagreement is not allowed and terf serves to dehumanise anyone who disagrees, and make them and their opinion worthless, but deserving of abuse.

As it is generally directed at women, an interesting exercise is to substitute the word woman. The resulting narrative is horrific.

It’s very effective tactic and results in a similar reaction to the word ‘witch’ of yore.

JAPAB

Not really. You said some men would have AGP, for others it will be ‘prejudiced assumption, supposition and theorising.’

When the typology clearly delineates between the two. With characteristics of each.

If one is aware of the characteristics, it’s not prejudicial assumption, supposition or theory.

I'm so confused... so 'trans' doesn't mean transgender? And what's a 'TERF'? In fact what is this whole thread about I'm really interested to understand but obviously very late to the party... please could someone explain? (Sorry OP to ask questions on your thread I just really want to know more)

Datun I didn't say AG didn't exist or wouldn't be applicalbe to some, along with all your other described thought processes and motives.

BarrackerBarmer Never underestimate how much some men hate women. In some men, as your OP notes, their hatred manifests as explicit threats of rape and violence against women.

Never underestimate the victim complexes of some women either, and their ability to filter out any salient information that might go against their preferred belief that anything that happens to them is as a result of women-hating (and not because of what they are actually saying or doing).

Few, if any of the posts linked to in the OP are directed at women. "Terfs" and "transphobes" and those otherwise perceived as anti-trans, maybe.

In other men, it manifests as dismissiveness of said threats, with accompanying justifications and excuses directed at the women to whom those threats are targeted.

I know the filter will have blocked this out, but I refer you to, for instance, the second post of this thread. You could just as easily infer that I am being "dismissive" and "justifying" of the vitriol, threats and violence that some black and homosexual people have dished out. And the people they will have dished these things out to, will probably be male in the main. But of course there is nothing here which would allow you to infer a motive of women-hating is there, so the filter blocks it out and leaves you with just the apparent justifying of this sort of thing in the trans debate.

Great thread

OP, you ok or do you need to see a cardiologist?

Never underestimate how much some men hate women. In some men, as your OP notes, their hatred manifests as explicit threats of rape and violence against women. In other men, it manifests as dismissiveness of said threats, with accompanying justifications and excuses directed at the women to whom those threats are targeted.

It's two sides of the same coin:
Man threatens to kill rape woman for refusing to validate his false beliefs/ other man defends the above position in a feminist forum.

There's very little difference really between the explicit woman hating threatening man on terfisaslur, and his apologist on, say, this thread.

JAPAB

Datun, there undoubtedly will be individual for whom all of that is true. Others for whom it is prejudiced assumption, supposition and theorising.

Not really. The profile of an autogynephile is there for anyone to read. The markers for which are neither prejudicial nor theoretic.

You really ought to do some reading if you are unaware of that.

4thwavenow.com/

Rather than asking why feminists aren't more accommodating to trans people, why not ask why trans people aren't more respectful of women's boundaries?

A question that is rarely to never asked.

Gender critical feminism is not the same as racism or homophobia. The idea that biological sex is a social construct, while true gender exists in the mind, is really, really radical. I've seen men claim that they are 'biological females' because they are biological beings who think they are female. If a woman doesn't sign up to those ideas it doesn't make her an evil bigot. Most people don't sign up to those ideas. That's why 'terf is a slur'.

Rather than asking why feminists aren't more accommodating to trans people, why not ask why trans people aren't more respectful of women's boundaries?

YY, Datun

And YY again for After saying you weren't doing what I said, you're doing it again, you pointless mansplaining bore ereshkigal

Datun, there undoubtedly will be individual for whom all of that is true. Others for whom it is prejudiced assumption, supposition and theorising.

How many of them hate women per se is another matter.

The reason why transactivists hate women is because they, and the cohort they represent, are autogynephiles. (As opposed to transsexuals who tend to agree with women).

Their very reason for being relies entirely on viewing women through a misogynistic lens. On women strictly adhering the gender stereotype of compliance, obedience, physical appeal and never-ending sex on tap.

Feminists are a huge double whammy. Not only do they see through it and totally disagree, they do not conform to this gender role that is so rigorously enforced and necessary for the fantasy.

Hence the never ending vitriol attacking the way feminists look. Must be too ugly to rape. People like Mary Beard coming in for stick.

‘Mouthy, opinionated feminists ruining everything.

Not really, Nauticant. That's a bit like quoting feminists as saying "trans people are a bit rapey".