Receptionist in 'unprofessional' clothes. Am conflicted

It's not remotely anti-feminist to expect women to dress appropriately for work. Feminism is basically about equality, about treating women and men the same. We don't want to see men at work with their underwear on show either, in inappropriate clothing.
Of course it is a lot more nuanced than that but the essential point holds.

bagelbaby I agree with GuardianLions when they said please don't take this personally.

The issue of women wearing revealing clothes which are inappropriate to certain contexts always riles some people who cannot reconcile criticism of this with being a feminist. I can reconcile it, as can many others, but some women can't, and their only recourse is to attack anybody who criticises a woman for the way she dresses (as I would criticise a man by the way, it has nothing to do with their sex!) as attacking women's right to wear clothes, slut-shaming etc etc.

This will change, and I hope so soon. Threads such as yours, and events in the news, are raising the question of why some women do dress in appropriately, do dress like "sluts", do dress in a way that is unprofessional and inappropriate, and calling that out is not anti-women, it's purely in my language, "for god's sake, you are creating an impression through your attire, you are representing a company, you are here to do business/sit on reception, wear appropriate clothes and stop acting like an air head who goes through life basing their value is only through how much cleavage they can show."

Don't let others stomping down on any vague or actual criticism of others stop you from feeling the discomfort your felt. You are not wrong nor being anti-feminist for feeling it.

So please don't take it personally - it's not you... I didn't take what you said to mean 'cover up woman'. It is interesting to discuss those conflicted feelings - because more often than not, they expose something when you examine them.

bagel When I read through threads, the sort of 'grabbing the wrong and of the stick and then use it to beat others down with'' comments get filtered out in my mind and the more gentle ones stick and move things forward. I also think your op hit a nerve for some people. They are so anxious about the brutal (I hate this term) 'slut shaming' that forms a huge part of misogyny, patriarchy and men's day to day power and control over women- think Saudi, that they can't entertain that a woman's appearance of freedom to dress as she pleases, might actually be the other side of the coin of patriarchy.

I would still want a good supportive bra.

That's an interesting question deydo. I do think temperature would have a huge amount to do with what I wore. So I'd be very well covered in the cold but wearing extremely skimpy clothing in summer and probably even topless on a very hot day. Hell, maybe I'd be a naturist. So in answer to your question I think no, in warm weather I'd be far less modest (presuming the all-female society has not set any rules of its own).

I would wear tight clothing if flappy material would be an impediment to an activity. So I think the thing I would be least likely to ever wear would be a long skirt, as these are very impractical.

I do think that even without male influence, I would want to wear adornments sometimes. In the way that kids make daisy chains and put them on. Clothing also has an artistic element for me so I think people would still want to experiment with colour, texture and so on.

I also think there is something aesthetically pleasing (as opposed to sexually pleasing) about the human form, male or female, and can imagine I would sometimes still like the look of clothing on myself or others which is tailored and follows and flatters the human form.

I found myself looking at the heels and then spotting the bra. I thought 'Jeez if I'm doing this, then I guess this young woman is getting similar and worse all day from men?'

I'm a feminist but I don't feel conflicted. The thing is, women who dress like this knows exactly that her bra is on show, knows she is showing cleavage, knows her skirt is tiny etc - she knows what she is doing and she knows the effect she is hoping to create in others. She probably is getting similar and worse all day from men, but since she knows it, I feel no sympathy for her whatsoever.

Do I think it's unprofessional? Absolutely. Would I wince if I saw it? Yes. Would I ever want anybody dressed like that working for me? No.

Do you think in a society or environment with no male influences, no males to please or titialate, no pressure to look good for men, etc. with 100% free choice what to wear, women would always wear (dare I say it) modest clothing?

Going by Nuns I Have Known, yes and no.
Nuns wear shorts, short sleeves, and don't cover their hair, if they are in an order where dress is not prescribed. Younger nuns dress less modestly than older nuns.
The 30-something primary school teacher nun I used to know wore more or less the same as the other primary school teachers (practical skirt i.e. wide with opaque tights in winter, or practical trousers i.e. flexible, long or short sleeved top depending on the weather).

The 60- and 70-something retired teacher/nurse/admin professional/academic nuns wore more or less the same as other older, middle-class retired professional single women - again trousers that were comfortable but not overly loose or tight, long or short sleeved tops.

None of them made a big thing of covering their bottoms (this is a cultural thing as many "non-modest" groups in some countries regard this as important too - e.g. Christians in a majority Muslim area I used to live in would not usually tuck in their blouses and would go for longer tops) or their hair, nor of wearing loose clothes, which seem to be the hallmarks of "modest" clothing.

But apart from longer shorts in very hot weather, and normal (not burkini or long) swim suits (this was before tankinis/swim shorts were very common), most of them would not wear very short, tight, or revealing clothes (no low cut tops, but not wearing them right up to their chins either).

Do you think in a society or environment with no male influences, no males to please or titialate, no pressure to look good for men, etc. with 100% free choice what to wear, women would always wear (dare I say it) modest clothing?

Wouldn't we all be lesbians and dress to attract each other instead?

No, because sometimes it might be more comfortable to wear something that exposes more skin. Or someone might prefer the feeling of tight stretchy clothes over loose ones. Or they might be bisexual or a lesbian and be looking to attract a partner.

I had an adviser and her (older male) colleague come to a meeting with me dressed in what can only be described as a provocative way. I found it extremely unprofessional and others in the meeting, were clearly finding the underwear on display very embarrassing.

Months afterwards I had a meeting with other senior adviser in the same team and they had the task of telling me that they were having to change the team given the "relationship" between senior and junior member of staff

Do you think in a society or environment with no male influences, no males to please or titialate, no pressure to look good for men, etc. with 100% free choice what to wear, women would always wear (dare I say it) modest clothing?

I think we all know what "appropriate" professional outfits are

I know that what I think is an appropriate professional outfit is, is different to what my mother thought one was, and her mother had another view entirely....

A 20 year old will have a different view to a 40 year old - I see a clear difference between the dress styles of interns and (older) senior managers in my office....

I thought the meaning was - it is irrelevant if a woman is awesome at her job or not - if her looks and decorative potential are actually considered her key attributes by her employer...

Maybe she's fucking awesome at her job, and happens to wear short skirts too?

why are you presuming she can't do her job?

I think we all know what "appropriate" professional outfits are.

I understand the internal conflict. I support any woman's right to dress in whatever way they are comfortable. Doesn't sound like she was comfortable, though (too tight clothing that you are constantly having to adjust, nobody is comfortable in that).

But agree with the comment of "depends on your definition of sexy". If I was a man, I'd not find the outfit described in the OP as sexy at all.

Many moons ago I used to work in this environment and had to visit car dealers and garages. It is the very last bastion of chauvinism sadly. Many of them still have porno shots up in the workshop.

My assumption would be this woman was hired for her looks and how she dressed. I would also assume it was an independent and not a chain.

As much as I respect her right to dress as she pleases, I also fundamentally have an issue with her perpetuating rhe myth of women in the workplace are important primarily due to our decorative abilities, how we look and dress Being more important that our ability to do the job.

I have a female friend who gets really turned on by seediness and fetshiseses the whole pervy bloke thing. She liked the thought of men being cheared by looking at page 3 of the Sun, she likes porn mags, leery comments, etc. I could easily imagine her deliberately dressing in revealing clothes if working at a garage or visiting a men's prison. She has indulged in a lots of risky sexual behaviour in the past such as pretending to be a prostitute to pick up men.

I find it hard to say 'you do you' to her - completely sincerely, because by provoking and enjoying male behaviours most women find threatening, she is encouraging it (even though she is usually the one in control of it) which is a bit unsisterly really - but she is mainly friends with gay men, so she doesn't get it.

And by unsisterly - I think the female prison guards would have a job on their hands on a day to day level - just maintaining a level of respect. Those social worker visits (described upthread) could have an aftermath that those female prison guards have to deal with again. So for a pervy thrill this one woman makes other women's jobs at work more difficult.

No I think you're right frank, the things we like, watch, listen to and wear are all influenced, hence why advertising budgets are huge.

I think it's acceptable to wear anything you want. I don't mind anything between burkha and bikini. It's not for me to judge - wear what you like.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I don't believe anything is a free choice.

But you could probably say that about anyone who wears anything ever.

What do you think is acceptable to wear???

I think it's correct to say that, whilst this lady presumably wears what she wears because she likes it and thinks it looks good, she has also been influenced by the media, social pressures etc to think that this looks good in the first place, ie it's not a free choice.

However, this is better tackled systemically rather than judging the poor girl for what she chooses to wear. She is a symptom, not the cause.

Well user, there are perhaps more useful things to be done but hey, you do you!

(Gets in first!)

I'll do me too - my habit is to annoy my eldest with (slightly ill-fitting to his mind) slang picked up from the internet. He's still intolerant enough of the "aged" to wind up nicely.

I don't really notice what other people wear, partly because I'm very self absorbed 😂but if I did notice in this situation I'd just assumed she liked those clothes and she must think she looks good.