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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question about equality

85 replies

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 21:19

For a long time, me and my friend used to discuss about the women's rights for a long time. Being the devil's advocate, I would try to prolong the talk for arguments' sake. But then, it slowly developed into a solid argument (in my opinion). Now I am curious what you all think about my thoughts. If you're willing, can we start a civil discussion?

There are many problems that females face, and there are many problems that males face. Many major groups of rights activists easily overlook, ignore, and deny the other side’s problems and arguments and continue to press on their side of the argument. This happens because of their personal benefit. It is convenient for them (let it be males or females) to have more rights in the future, so the rights activists continue to struggle to this day. I believe that it is necessary for people to open up and reach an agreement that men and women are to be equal, and that they all are entitled to a power to reach an agreement in deciding the distribution of the rights, merits, and responsibilities within the society.

If people want to argue that men and women have the same capabilities, then should the responsibilities of each sex be distributed 50% each? If so, should 50% of the fathers in child custody issues be given a chance to take care of the baby? Should there be no required economic support from the fathers’ side with the assumptions that women are equally capable?

For the wage difference between males and females, is it appropriate to take the maternity leave and other vacancy of the working forces due to some other inevitable female burdens into account when we look into their wages? If so, do we pay them for their times away from work as well? If not, how will you take this approach?

What is the limit that you all are comfortable to set and say that “this is equal” to everyone? Is your ideals for equality something that is entirely 50:50, or something that is derived from each sex’s “roles” within the society? Is it a mix of both? Or is it something entirely different? Do women need more rights over men because in the past, it was other way around? I am very curious.

When confronting these questions, it is very important to question yourself if you are arguing for sake of your own convenience. If you are going to make an emotional appeal for your argument, take into account what the opposite sex will go through emotionally when something similar happens to them. If you are going to make a statistical report, question the source’s biasness from their research, as it is easy to remove the parts that are inconvenient for them and still tell the truth. It will be truly hard to argue in a impartial manner.

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TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 30/11/2017 09:58

disrupting their lives as little* as possible.

Obviously Grin

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 30/11/2017 09:57

The parent who does most of the childcare should have residency following separation or divorce

The parent who doesn't sacrifice their career to childcare should provide maintenance

Yup. This is how it works anyway isn't it? Much is made online of how mothers apparently have the courts skewed in their favour in divorces..but its nothing to do with them being mothers as far as I am aware, its about who did the lions share of child rearing to start with. If me and DH divorced tomorrow, I am fairly sure if we could not sort out stuff between ourselves and we went to court, he would be awarded main custody. Because he is the one who does most of the childcare due to my illness. Its not about favoring the mother, its about favoring the children and disrupting their lvies as much as possible.

QuentinSummers · 30/11/2017 08:14

wnsdkfl what biscuits are popular in Korea?

makeourfuture · 30/11/2017 08:05

inevitable female burdens

This turn of phrase....

CocoaXx · 30/11/2017 08:04

Plus wtfnsdkl have you actually ever looked after a child? I doubt it. Are you a family lawyer? I doubt it. Have you got half-baked ideas about equality in divorce based on hearsay and male entitlement? I suspect so.

Have some more Biscuit

When you have been the primary carer of a child with additional needs, and in litigation, then come back and talk to me about equality.

Biscuit

You are pontificating about actual real life people’s lives. Are you trying to be annoying or have you got so little awareness of life beyond your own bubble that you think passing uninformed judgements on situations you know nothing about is a good idea?

So custody favouring the mother bugs you? Does it also bug you that many separated mothers live in poverty after divorce because they have had caring responsibilities for most of their child’s lives? Does it bug you that women have lower pensions than men on balance because of their caring responsibilities?

Engage your brain, please. It is not rocket science. Start with the Fawcett Society for some statistics about (in)equality and then go from there.

Biscuit again.

QuentinSummers · 30/11/2017 07:44

sonic I bow to your mumsnet genius.

Does anyone remember toffypops? I used to love those.

CocoaXx · 30/11/2017 07:21

Main career, not career, sorry

CocoaXx · 30/11/2017 07:20

The point about residency for a child after divorce is that the legal basis is the best interests of the child, NOT the equal rights of the parents.

The best interests of the child are judged on an individual basis in the context of other factors (who has previously been main career, school arrangements, friends, additional needs, and so on). You don’t divide up the child’s time like you divide up a CD collection.

There is a whole area of family law with a massive scholarship around it. The best interests of the child are arguably not served with 50/50 shared care, but a stable base home and consistent and amicable contact with the NRP. It is quite rightly decided on a case by case basis.

Try the UN convention of the rights of the child as a starting point. Children are not property, but sentient beings with their own set of rights. Lawyers and the courts (and parents) should be considering these, not their own rights. Parents have responsibilities.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:33

Then the main problem would be enforcing them into practice...

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FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:33

If you read those threads, you'll see that that was mentioned more than once - that it would be better to make the whole carpark safe, rather than leave those that don't get the privileged spots to the wolves.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:28

It seems like safety is a big part of the discussion over there. Although less likely to happen, what about the guys' safety in that case? I know it is impossible to accomplish everyone's safety with gender specific parking space.

What about increased lighting and stationed security throughout the parking lot for an overall increase in safety?

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FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:24

If you look at the top of the page, you can search for previous threads, or just have a scroll around.

We've covered, in depth lots of topics over the years.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:23

I'll look into them

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FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:22

We spoke about this - Germany has them too:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2498050-women-only-parking-spaces

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2282547-Frauenparkplatz

Really, I think you'll find a lot of answers if you read the board a bit.

birdsdestiny · 29/11/2017 23:21

I am all for it. I could get to the biscuit aisle quicker.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:18

While I understand that I asked too many questions, I would like to ask another question. Korea recently set a law where 15% to 20% of the available parking spaces, especially in places like department stores, must be converted to female's use only parking spots. Thanks to that, I had to walk much less because they were all near the entrances of the store, but on one side, I feel like it's slightly unfair. What are your thoughts?

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Bucketsandspoons · 29/11/2017 23:16

Oh God, pass the lemon puffs.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:14

MindWillingBodyNotSoMuch

Are you saying that you've missed your promotions because of your inevitable circumstances? While it's unfortunate to hear that, isn't it supposed to be fair to promote someone who was present at work?
Or did you mean something else?

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wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:12

As a side note, I am not here to convince anyone here, but ask questions out of curiosity. I'm planning to ask the same thing to the other side pretty soon too, so please give me serious answers. Smile

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wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:10

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

So you are saying that the mothers tend to be more available for the child than the fathers?
Under such circumstances, it is logical to give the mother more of the child custody.

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FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:09

and it will create an endless list of problems to discuss.

Yep, hence this board.

Honestly, we've spoken about it a lot - have a scroll around!

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:05

Certainly some of the men out there will be annoyed for the recent changes. And I am leaving such whiners out of discussion. Can't let some few bad apples spoil the entire basket, right? I am talking about the guys who will bring about good points.

Also, lookism is a problem in Korea, but it is also a problem throughout the world. While plastic surgery issues could be paired up with gender "role" assignment or expectations of women, many other things can be linked to more of the women's rights problems if one argues for it, and it will create an endless list of problems to discuss.

As I initially stated, I am agreeing with all the problems everyone said so far. Yes, they are a problem to be solved, and efforts must be put in to ending them as soon as possible.

I am interested in knowing what general people's ideal gender equality is, while challenging them to consider what the potential counterarguments would be. And since this is an ideal, I have no expectation of the response to be so realistic. (Although some are so ideal that it is about biscuits and caramels Smile)

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thatstoast · 29/11/2017 23:03

Tunnocks tea cakes - I had to ban them from the house after I ate six in one sitting.

Pretty sure that's the recommended serving size.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 29/11/2017 23:01
Shock
WhatWouldGenghisDo · 29/11/2017 23:01

Quentin was that a tardis?

Tardis
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