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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PE Teachers and self identification

35 replies

Trueheart1 · 28/11/2017 21:59

Currently schools can advertise for female or male PE teachers. This is because these teachers have to accompany the children in the changing rooms. If the GRA passes will this still be the case? Or could a man apply for the post of female PE teacher because he self identifies as female? I genuinely do not know if this will be the case. If it is the case, the implications are horrifying.

OP posts:
DontBuyANewMumCashmere · 29/11/2017 10:35

I don't know. I think they are done using both local and national databases.

But, absolutely, if Janet Smith used to be John Smith with precons for child abuse, I don't know how Janet's precons are actually found out if she hasn't been in police contact since transing.

I haven't had a check done on me since I joined the police so I don't know what is done. Do you have to give ID numbers for cross reference such as passport or Drivers licence?
Going to ask someone who'll know...

BeyondAssignation · 29/11/2017 10:12

When someone applies for enhanced disclosure, is it done from this system?

I'm not thinking of a repeat offender that you are aware of in this, more someone who committed an offence, then got their GRC and applied in their new name for a relevant (eg PE teacher) job?

DontBuyANewMumCashmere · 29/11/2017 09:40

I've just realised I've written an essay on this... sorry! Was going to heavily edit but it might be interesting to someone so will leave it!

TL;DR - it's a national computer database. Each force has their own Intel database so it's covered on local and national level. There is no way across both levels we would miss a link between a former male offender, and a new 'woman' going around offending. We would not create a new record for the 'woman'... his old record would be updated (once arrested/had dealings with us).
We wouldn't be notified if someone changed their gender, only if they were previously known to us and then arrested after 'changing' - we'd then update our local database and their PNC record would be updated to include their new name - in very small circumstances maybe their main name entry would be changed but I don't think this is a policy yet.
Perhaps it will soon be...
If someone had offended as a man and then transitioned but never got into trouble with the police, I don't think we'd ever find out about it.

Do you know if different police forces have difference policies on this? Or is it a national database?

I have worked in two forces and as far as I know it is a national practise - the police national computer (totally national) is a bit unwieldy and you don't have a huge option to change any details once they're inputted, if any at all.
I've been trying to remember whether the PNC entry for this specific TiM was changed so their main name was altered. I seem to recall a big fuss because it was changed.
We don't usually change main PNC details so it was very unusual.

For example, if someone's name is spelled wrong on first arrest, any further dealings with police will be linked to that old name but perhaps an entry will be made to say an alias name is their correct name. But the initial entry itself won't be changed iirc.

So the idea that we would be able to go in and delete Male for Female and change names is improbable when we can't even do it for name errors, driving licence errors etc
The records themselves are usually detailed. Physical descriptions on each arrest are recorded: not just height/weight but hair style, tattoos, marks on body etc
And our 'career criminals' often have numerous aliases (including misspellings but also totally separate invented names)
So this TiM has a list of names I think including their 'deadname' and some other aliases they have used over time.

I should add that most forces have a separate database for their own crimes, investigations, intelligence etc (some forces use the same database and can view each other's data, but by no means all forces do this).
So even if someone hasn't been arrested but has had a complaint made about them, are victims, or witnesses, there should be an entry in their force Intel system.
Furthermore in my most recent force the local database was linked so a new identity would just go onto the person's main page. Their main screen probably would be altered to indicate new gender and names but their information and former dealings with us wouldn't be deleted. You can enter Notes so I'm sure this information would be included in the main screen.

I'm 99% sure we wouldn't just start a new entry for a TiM with whom we had had previous dealings. Shock that would be ridiculous and a step too far for most coppers! We are naturally suspicious and cynical (and probably conservative and old fashioned too).

My old force's database was similar.

Are the police routinely informed whenever someone gets a GRC or changes their name? And do you know whether the GRA is planning to change this?

No way, I don't think we're informed of anything like this.
But considering we only really have detailed dealings with offenders we'd only be interested in someone's gender change because of the practicalities - if they were arrested and we suddenly had to provide different detention officers to search the person/officers to watch, if required. (Our guidance is to ask the individual who they would like to have search them.)

CanIBuffalo · 29/11/2017 06:21

And checks are only effective if the person has previously been caught.

Thermostatpolice · 29/11/2017 06:12

DontBuy That's genuinely reassuring. Sorry to derail, but I have lots of questions and it's the first time I've seen someone address those concerns here. Do you know if different police forces have difference policies on this? Or is it a national database? Are the police routinely informed whenever someone gets a GRC or changes their name? And do you know whether the GRA is planning to change this? Thanks!

ALittleBitOfButter · 29/11/2017 01:20

Oh that's really good to know! That's never been clear before in our discussions here.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere · 29/11/2017 00:12

Quick point, I was a copper and routinely dealt with a TiM. All previous records were linked to both names ie we would access/have a list of precons for that subject and both names (in fact a number of aliases) were linked.

Bucketsandspoons · 28/11/2017 23:26

Considering that safeguarding of today is built on the learning from bad experiences of past decades - the bastard who shot the children of Dunblane spent years abusing boys in local groups like scouts, decades of children were systematically abused by people working in children's homes who went after the jobs because of the access to children - this is ridiculously incoherent.

Yes, any teacher applying for a post is going to go through a thorough police check. However when someone transitions, their previous identity - AND any offenses listed on it - are erased as 'deadnaming' is so appalling. How accurate will police checks really be? It's criminally irresponsible to assume that no one will abuse this.

DJBaggySmalls · 28/11/2017 23:17

Maria Miller had made it clear that there is no situation that would be barred to men who say they are women. They could identify as women and apply to work with abused women and children. Or walk into the womens only area of a place of worship.
She cannot conceive of men that would abuse this trust. If you google 'Wendy Jones walks free from court' you can see she is wrong.

Thermostatpolice · 28/11/2017 22:51

I can't see why not.

As I understand it (would be happy to be corrected if this isn't the case), the teacher would first have to obtain a gender reassignment certificate. But the plan is to remove current gatekeeping and move to self-certification. So a male teacher could, with minimal legal faffing about, simply self-certify themselves as reassigned to female.

In this scenario, how could a school stop a self-certified 'female' but male-bodied teacher applying for female roles? The teacher would be legally female.

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