PE Teachers and self identification

Thanks, it's useful to understand the systems that are currently in place

On Nomis (prison computer system) we use whatever name is on the warrant at the time, with all old names as aliases with only 1 prison number given per person. If they have been in before, we can find their entire record very easily.

So sorry DJBaggySmalls I was just trying to answer some things people asked about, as did Don'tBuyaNewMumCashmere. Discussions do evolve.

When I worked in a police station the only complaint I ever heard from a rape victim was one who was interviewed by a pregnant police officer. She was the only experienced woman on duty at the time but the victim later made a complaint as she felt it was insensitive because it reminded her she could be pregnant.

Rape victims and domestic violence victims were routinely interviewed by women in the force where I worked.

OlennasWimple, I see what you mean. No I don't think the PNC would show that or the DBS system necessarily but if the have applied for a DBS previously in a different name the NI number will show it. Also if they start work and you submit their NI number the name and gender won't match, they will query this as I have had it happen for a staff member who had changed his name so when his P45 was submitted I got a letter asking me to check his ID.

I suppose if they hadn't been working as a woman or had been working cash in hand it might not get picked up.

It does get complicated and there might be other checks I don't know about, I did have training from DBS (well it was CRB at the time) when I was first registered to do the applications but it was some years back and I've been retired for nearly 3 years so things might have changed.

As I said nothing is fullproof but I can say I have prospective staff who have had to be fingerprinted and I have had contact from HMRC to query an identity so I do think they do a pretty good job.

OP didnt ask about criminals; she asked about men who identify as women doing jobs that are better done by women.

They dont have to be criminals for this to be a problem.
The information about offenders is interesting and reassuring but its a digression.

Do you think that a female rape victim should be interviewed by a woman? Because I do, but Maria Miller thinks that makes me a bigot.

BelalugosisShed, DBS don't accept it, as it says it is the same as anyone else who gets a replacement birth certificate but for Group 1 for DBS it has to be a birth certificate issued within 12 months of birth. It doesn't give a date for adoption certificates so I assume it is irrelevant if your adoption certificate is dated more than a year after your birth.

The new birth certificate will have a date that it was issued e.g. I have my original birth certificate which is dated as being issued 6 days after my birth. I can apply for a new copy but it won't be dated 6 days after my birth. The problem with birth certificates is that if I know you name, d.o.b., and the area you were born I can go and buy a copy as easily as you can so it isn't great ID. If you have one from when you were six days old you definitely didn't buy it to impersonate someone else.

So basically the person who has transitioned and gets a new birth certificate showing their new gender are not being treated differently to anyone else who has lost/destroyed the original.

Granny - I was thinking more broadly.

Say A has a birth certificate that records their sex as male. They obtain a GRC which says that they are now to be considered as female and are now known as B.

Subsequently, they commit a crime. They do not say that they have a GRC, so the PNC record shows that B is female.

B then applies for a job requiring enhanced DBS, and to support the application they use their original birth certificate, showing that A is male and has not committed a crime. AFAIK, there would be nothing on the DBS systems that links A and B?

Actually, Ive just found this online.
It looks like they are accepted as full i.d.

I’ve got an adoption certificate ( which states my dob but is dated 2 and a bit years later) but no birth certificate.

So Grannietomine, a new birth certificate is invalid as official i.d. as opposed to a certified copy of an original?

So would it be obvious to anyone viewing a new ‘replacement’ certificate that the person had a previous identity?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant committed a crime (or suspected of committing a crime) for the first time after getting a GRC. Ie the initial record on the PNC would state that the individual was a woman (say) and unless they gave their former name during questioning / booking in would anything be recorded to show that they were trans? (And if they had a gender neutral birth name, that in itself might not tell the police that the individual was born male (say)).

Do you mean they hadn't committed any crime, or come to police notice, before the GRC? Would it matter if you didn't know they had be born male (or female as relevant) I thought the concern was about not knowing someone now identifying as female had previously been a male and previous convictions would be missed.

Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Adoption certificates are listed separately to birth certificates. I'm sorry I've never had an adoption certificate as ID for an enhanced disclosure so no personal experience. For birth certificates you can only use them as a Group 1 Id if they were issued within 12 months of the birth. This is logical as anyone can apply for a birth certificate but if you have one issued when you were a baby it is much more likely to genuinely be yours although it could be your sisters, nothing is 100% is it.

Do adopted children have a new birth certificate and an adoption certificate? Sorry to show my ignorance but as I said I have no personal experience of this.

I guess the difficulties in police (and other identity) checks come when a TIM or TIF commit a crime after getting a GRC

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant committed a crime (or suspected of committing a crime) for the first time after getting a GRC. Ie the initial record on the PNC would state that the individual was a woman (say) and unless they gave their former name during questioning / booking in would anything be recorded to show that they were trans? (And if they had a gender neutral birth name, that in itself might not tell the police that the individual was born male (say)).

granny - I don't think that is always the case, surely? Eg my DD is adopted and has a new birth certificate with her adopted name on it, which is eligible for use as a Group 1 ID

You couldn't use that new birth certificate as your group 1 identification as it has to be the original i.e. one issued within a year of your birth.

As I mentioned a few months ago, there is a sensitive applications dept. for DBS checks where someone with a new birth certificate ( when you have that you can destroy your GRC ) is meant to identify themselves.
The organisation requesting the check does not ever have to know about the name/gender change, so if the person never contacts the S.A dept. ?
Well, I still havent found out if they could avoid being caught out if they have a criminal record in their male ‘dead name’ , as their birth certificate shows they were born female😡

Thanks for explaining so much.

So I asked a very clever and knowledgeable colleague: (end question was "Basically could a predatory male easily evade a DBS check by transing?")
She said - Not without lying. When you have an enhanced check done you have to give all names that you have gone by. So the person would have to provide all names, male and female so PNC checks would be done on both.

And granny pointed out that both local and national systems are checked, and sometimes prints are taken to establish ID.

Childrenofthestones I will find that out too - have a PE teacher friend who is now a dep head and she'll know the situation in a few local schools I think.

DJ that's not exactly true - the PNC shows some property records, firearms licenses, vehicle owner details, Driving Licence details (with offences/points etc) and some victim records, and furthermore local systems that Granny said are also checked show victim/witness/stopped by police/basically anytime a car is run through PNC the local force would record it.

Olennas I think a custody question is 'any other former names' and this would be their opportunity to give their 'deadname'. You'd be surprised how many people are genuinely truthful at this stage. Obviously I'm not naïve enough to think that all individuals are entirely truthful too.
I don't actually think the police would be informed that their DNA search for Janet Smith was actually male DNA. Don't think so at all. We just get a match on any other records in the system (known offenders ie this it their real ID or unknown offenders - your prisoner raped someone 4 years ago - that sort of thing.)

I don't see why the names wouldn't be linked, as Don'tBuy said it has always been linked in the past if people use an alias or a name is wrongly recorded or a name is changed by marriage or other reason. If they commit a crime fingerprints would link them even if they didn't admit the original name.

The list of documents for enhanced DBS is quite specific. I don't suppose any system is 100% although they do seem to be quite thorough. I assume NI numbers don't change so that would be one way to track people.

I guess the difficulties in police (and other identity) checks come when a TIM or TIF commit a crime after getting a GRC. Are they obliged to disclose their former name, so that the PNC can include both names? What about when DNA samples are taken that show the individual, say, is biologically male but presenting as female? How is that recorded?

And what happens to the original birth certificate? Does the individual effectively have access to multiple identities with legal documentation to support both?

And on the OP, yes, self-ID means that an advert for a girls PE teacher (acceptable under current legislation, both because of the need to be able to supervise changing and showering facilities, but also the need to be able to touch students more than other teaching subjects) could be answered by a TIM

My concern is that GRC should not become an acceptable document for ID purposes, so in the examples above that could be offered instead of passport/driving licence (because if you provide one of those there is no need to show birth certificate). Will there be a right to not disclose previous surnames as that's 'dead-naming'?

The police database only applies to offenders.
Men who dont have a criminal record will be able to take jobs that are better done by women.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Thank you very much for taking the time to type that out. Exactly the info I was interested in.

Where I live childrenofthestones there can be very few applicants for teaching posts. A local school recently had only one applicant for the headteacher post.

It's concerning. Many thanks to dontbuy for the input, so interesting to hear.

I would be amazed if any m2f transgenders applying would be given the post anyway.
With very most likely multiple binary applications coming in, why would a school set themselves up for a fall with so many parents.
How they will handle gender fluid PE teachers should be an interesting thing.

Dontbuy Thank you for taking the time to explain, that's really helpful to know.

Enhanced disclosures use various databases, some of them dependent on which boxes are ticked, but the Police checks are done and when I was doing them they would go to more than one force if they had moved around so national database would be used and local. Back in my day it would be the Collator who did the local check but the police have probably got some new snazzy title now. This information would be "intelligence" so not just the convictions that show on the PNC.

When you fill out the forms you should give all previously used names, obviously criminals might not, but you also have to give ID so your original birth certificate or passport or driver's licence or similar government approved documents e.g. adoption certificate or army ID.

I have had applicants where there was a query about their identity and they have had to have their fingerprints taken by local police to prove they aren't someone else, you don't actually get told who they are suspected of being.

I am retired now so might have changed.