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Original poster

IVF, surrogacy, sperm donation, feminism

133 replies

loopdeloo · 26/11/2017 17:16

Firstly, I should say that I have just had a second round of unsuccessful IVF and it looks like this is not going to work out for me and DH, so I am having a lot of emotional and confusing thoughts and I really hope people can bear that in mind if I say something offensive on what is a hugely sensitive topic and please forgive me if I get this wrong.

Because of our situation, we are now being talked to about egg donation (i.e. attempting IVF with another woman's eggs and my DH's sperm). I don't want to do this because it doesn't feel right for me personally for a number of reasons, one of which is it just feels too "Handmaid's" and that I would be a vessel to provide my DH with his own genetic offspring. He completely gets this, and the other reasons that resonate for both of us, and we are looking at adoption instead.

I have two sets of lesbian friends who have children through sperm donation from someone they knew. In one family, the father is involved, in the other he is not, although he is not being kept "anonymous". This has never seemed to be much of a problem to me. I also have one set of gay male friends who have adopted 2 children in the UK and they are wonderful parents and although it has been hard, their experience has really helped DH and I look at adoption positively.

And yet now I have a couple of male gay friends who have decided to go to the US to have a surrogate mother - who will be anonymous to the child - and it is making me feel deeply uncomfortable. The total cost is going to be near on $100k and they are spending time browsing through brochures of women's profiles. As I type, I'm not sure why the cost is relevant and yet it seems to be so I'm going to leave it in the post. This seems even more 'handmaid's' and I can't quite get my head round it.

Is this just a purely irrational and emotional reaction due to my personal struggle with infertility, or is there a feminist issue here? I am aware that I'm all over the shop emotionally at the moment and that there is the potential for great hypocrisy here and I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts and not looking for agreement or sympathy.

OP posts:
MMmomDD · 27/11/2017 00:57

Loop - you can chose to look at it this way.
The way my friend looked at it was - she wanted to carry a child. Feel it grow in her body. Bond with it.

What if the issue was you H’s sperm? Would you also not want to try another IVF?

I am not saying you are wrong in anything.
I was just giving you examples of how other people looked at it.

Leilaniii · 27/11/2017 00:55

loopdeloo, why don't you 'adopt' an embryo? Then it is biologically neither yours nor your husband's. There are literally thousands of leftover embryos. Most embryo adoptions are coordinated by religious groups in the US, but it might be worth thinking about?

Jinglebellhell17 · 27/11/2017 00:55

If you would feel third wheel in the scenario of using a egg donor would you go for egg and sperm donor with you carrying? That's an option too.

Original poster
loopdeloo · 27/11/2017 00:52

MomDD - a major difference here when it comes to being a "vessel" is that your single female friends were trying to do IVF on their own and were already using sperm donors before the question of egg donation or surrogacy. It's a different scenario to me taking an anonymous woman's eggs and undergoing IVF and potentially a pregnancy so that my husband can have a biological child.

OP posts:
SylviaPoe · 27/11/2017 00:50

Gay men can be parents, and many are. They donate sperm to single women or lesbian couples.

Nobody deserves or does not to be a parent, anymore than people do or do not deserve cancer.

Original poster
loopdeloo · 27/11/2017 00:49

Leilaniii - they can adopt.

OP posts:
MMmomDD · 27/11/2017 00:48

OP - I am sorry for your struggles.
And you are, of course, entitled to your opinions.

But not everybody who uses a surrogate is a Kim Kardashian, or an entitled rich person. And not everyone who uses donated eggs is a vessel.

A few of my dear single female friends had to go that way for medical reasons. And kids that were born are beautiful and they bring joy to their families.
A friend who used a surrogate - had tried IVF and her body just couldn’t sustain a pregnancy. And she had one embryo left. Just one. And the surrogate had a few kids already and sure, she was paid. But she wasn’t a poor exploited woman.

And my other good friend. She had a terrible luck with men. For years. A then she tried IVF on her own. A few times in the UK. But it’s very expensive here. She couldn’t afford to continue, and by then her eggs weren’t there anymore.
Donation of both egg and sperm was the only way.
She gave birth to her child. She wasn’t a vessel. He is hers.
DNA is only a small part of it all.

Nothing Handmaidy about any of these.

Leilaniii · 27/11/2017 00:48

LassWiTheDelicateAir, so what you're saying is, because they're gay, they don't deserve to be parents?

Original poster
loopdeloo · 27/11/2017 00:47

For those of you who think using another woman's eggs is "buying a baby", do you also believe that having a termination is "killing a baby"?

I think a woman using another woman's eggs is fine, even though it's not for me. I've personally realised that I'm finding the idea of men buying women's eggs and renting a woman's body for 9 months is an entirely different scenario, and one that has nothing to do with abortion.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/11/2017 00:45

I get you loopdeloo, but how else are they going to be parents otherwise?

I don't get your point. They can't. There are lots of things people can't do / don't get.

Jinglebellhell17 · 27/11/2017 00:44

It's not her baby though. The surrogate isn't biologically related to the baby. All I know have formed close bonds with the family and are kept updated. The surrogate chooses whom she carries for. They meet and mutually agree to be matched. The parents meet the surrogates husband/kids etc.

Leilaniii · 27/11/2017 00:44

GuardianLions, it is close to eugenics, however isn't it anyway, when we choose a mate? We are (generally) attracted to good-looking, healthy, clever people to mate with.

GuardianLions · 27/11/2017 00:40

I've known a few who have done it.
That blows my mind... What if the people they hand their baby over to are abusive a holes or something?

Jinglebellhell17 · 27/11/2017 00:36

If it's in the us there are very stringent guidelines on who can be a surrogate. It's mostly military wives. They aren't poor but not well off. I've known a few who have done it. One did it simply because she loved being pregnant but really her family was complete. One was a doula who did it for altruistic reasons. One did it partly for a college fund for her kids partly for altruistic reasons. They really aren't uneducated exploited women. I think the case in places like India is entirely different.

GuardianLions · 27/11/2017 00:31

Leilaniii
What you are saying makes it all sound like the surrogacy business is uncomfortably close to eugenics... Chilling.

SylviaPoe · 27/11/2017 00:31

They can’t be parents. That’s the point.

Leilaniii · 27/11/2017 00:29

I get you loopdeloo, but how else are they going to be parents otherwise?

Leilaniii · 27/11/2017 00:28

For those of you who think using another woman's eggs is "buying a baby", do you also believe that having a termination is "killing a baby"?

Genuine question, BTW.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/11/2017 00:24

I find it sickening the thought of those brochures op - effectively looking through a catalogue of women to buy a baby

I agree.

Original poster
loopdeloo · 27/11/2017 00:24

Lelaniii, thank you for that insight. Like Lass, it makes me feel even worse about it. I don't want to be a self-absorbed shit but I don't think I can be there for my friend on this, even if I wasn't going through all the personal trouble that I am. The idea of him and his boyfriend browsing through brochures of bikini shots of female colleague students, deciding who is going to give them their most perfect $$$$$$ baby just makes me feel sick.

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 27/11/2017 00:21

I personally couldn't be a surrogate, because I don't think I could give up the child. What if the surrogate goes through pregnancy, birth, etc - then realises that they cannot give up the child? What a terrible dilemma to put a woman in, aside from the risks to her health.

I find it sickening the thought of those brochures op - effectively looking through a catalogue of women to buy a baby.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/11/2017 00:14

I was referring to Lelaniii's first post. It all just feels like buying a baby. I'm afraid my instinctive reaction is that buying a baby and buying sex are just not acceptable.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/11/2017 00:11

That "assurance" by Lelaniii does nothing to make me feel less uncomfortable about the ethics of surrogacy.

Leilaniii · 27/11/2017 00:10

... however, I do share your discomfort to a degree. When one of my friends registered to donate her eggs, we went onto the website to view her profile and quite a few of the girls had bikini shots as their profile pics. It just seemed highly inappropriate.

grannytomine · 27/11/2017 00:09

You have to look at it from the child's point of view as well,, it is OK saying sperm donation is easier but I used to work with someone who was the result of sperm donation. She had really serious psychological problems with it. It wasn't easy for her.

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