Girlguides now in on the act

So saying a trans female wants to join the guides she won't be able to? And yes I know the scouts accept girls but for arguments sake I am wondering where these people fit into society. Sadly it seems they don't.

Bit of a stretch? If they're not given unquestioning, total access to all women's spaces they're being cast out of society? Really?

Scouts accept girls. Many organisations accept both boys and girls. There are many, many options in society where it wouldn't be a problem at all - as many have said on this thread. This is not about there being no Guide opportunities anywhere for transgirls who are therefore being deprived of woggle and campfire related experiences in their childhoods, it's about a trans lobby determined that every single space reserved for girls and women must now be progressive and welcome males who self identify.

You clearly don't feel women and girls are entitled to those spaces. You're entitled to your opinion. Mine is that there are resources created by women for women and girls and spaces created for women and girls, they are necessary and needed, and not every one of those should have to be surrendered in the name of hyperbole like 'sadly there's no space for these people in society'. There's plenty of space for trans groups to create their own spaces. There's plenty of space to develop unisex and gender neutral spaces. It's not necessary to appropriate every single space for biological females: and as many posts here have pointed out that's the bottom line here.

Not 'I just want a place in society', but 'this space has been claimed from biological women, tick it off the list'.

Nice bit of shaming btw.

I've already had this. I host foreign students - girls only as they share a room and it's next to dds room. Last year picked up 2 14 year old Italian girls only one was a boy in make up. Sharing a room! Dh furious as our girls only rule ignored. We all had to pretend he was a girl "but he's a boy" says 8 year old cue kicks under table. We gritted teeth for a week but I was worried about my liability having mixed sex minors in one room. Clarified my rules now.

I hope too I don't end up with a child who has true gender dysphoria, as it must be incredibly distressing to believe you are born in the 'wrong body'. Especially as there are no really positive options for someone in that position.

The drugs they give you to delay puberty are irreversible and cause harm in many ways. You may well end up unable to orgasm through the interventions offered, which are presented as the only thing keeping you from suicide. Once puberty blockers are taken there is no going back, whatever organisations like Mermaid might say to them. You may well regret your decision but any study into this issue is deemed 'transphobic' and suppressed.

If I had such a child, I would say that they were not born in the wrong body, they were born in their own body. That they can wear what they want, do what they want, be however they want but that changing their sex is an impossibility.

These poor children are being sold a lie and I worry about them.

whoever up thread says 'they hope we don't end up with trans kids' i can assure you I wont. As there is no way i'd entertain it as an option without getting appropriate mental health help for my child.

As I would do if they told me they were going to jump out of a window and fly. It's nonsense and I wouldn't encourage or support it as anything other than nonsense to be dismissed.

I'm a guider and heavily involved in guiding and this is something I and I think a lot of other leaders probably worry about. I would not take a group away with an mtf young person as part of the group because I can't seperate them according to guiding regs and i wouldn't feel comfortable not seperating natal males and females. As an adult I wouldn't want to share a room or tent to sleep (as often happens on events or trainings) with an mtf adult and would probably just leave if asked to.

It's also about the fact that because males and females are socialised differently from birth it is nice to share experiences with someone who has been socialised in the same way as you have

Out of all the arguments presented as to why guides should remain single sex that is the weakest.

I'm not convinced by the mantra on here that it is a given that girls are automatically socialised at birth to be nice or sweet or quiet but if you think that then do your utmost in your own home and family to counteract it.

What experiences would they be sharing anyway?

What Humphrey said.

LEM, do you think I, as a white woman can identify as a black woman and force myself to be accepted as president of the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People "passing" as black or not?

To be clear, I have no agenda regarding individuals with gender dysphoria. They have the right to live their lives, join in with things according to their presented sex OR their actual biological sex, as appropriate, as long as the rights of women to have their own spaces away from penis owning individuals is maintained.

Most transwomen keep their penis.

The guide thing is worrying due to the fact that parents and girls have no right to object to having to share a space with a male individual who 'presents' as a girl. In fact they have no right to know. That individual has the opportunity to present however they wish, but do not have to join the guides, or if they do, they could be happy with sleeping separately from girls perhaps?

The choice of girls to have their own spaces is not considered.

A lesbian child would have the right to be there, she is a girl - in a female space.

By the way in my above posts about teens having sex. I was assuming consenting sex.
So if a girl said no to a MtF boy and no more was done - he would still be in an inappropriate place.

If a girl said no to a lesbian girl and no more was done - she would still be in the appropriate place.

Men and boys are also statistically much, much more violent toward women than other females.

"Because lesbians exist and use the appropriate space for their sex" - is not an decent argument to allowing a natal male into a female space based on purely how they identify.

It's whataboutery.

So saying a trans female wants to join the guides she won't be able to

You mean a female who identifies as male? I'm honestly not sure what the guides position is on that.

So it's just about pregnancy then?

Of course not. It's a fact that statistically males are far far more likely to be violent / predatory than females.

It's also about the fact that because males and females are socialised differently from birth it is nice to share experiences with someone who has been socialised in the same way as you have.

And of course.some girls simply would not be allowed to go if there were males there.

I'm sure others far more eloquent than me can explain it better!

So saying a trans female wants to join the guides she won't be able to? And yes I know the scouts accept girls but for arguments sake I am wondering where these people fit into society. Sadly it seems they don't.

I think we might sound vitriolic because this agenda is not being pushed by gender dysphoric teenagers, it is being driven by trans rights activists who have and continue to display nothing but contempt for the rights of women to have safe spaces. Any dissent from this view and you are told to 'die in a fire, TERF', no platformed, called transphobic, dismissed contemptuously and hated. You are told you are 'literally killing' gender confused teenagers by the score and you should be ashamed. According to Maria Miller (chair of the women's and equality commission) you are dismissed as a 'so called feminist' and your views are dismissed on that account.

Meanwhile organisations and councils are changing the official advice regarding women and girls spaces, all driven through by trans rights activists with an agenda we can only consider misogynist.

I am pretty livid, to be honest. And a bit scared at how rapidly 50% of the population can be thrown under a bus just to appease the demands of a tiny section of men who demand it.

So it's just about pregnancy then?

So what if one of the girls is a lesbian? Will se be banned too or is it ok because she doesn't have a penis?

No. It's ok because she is female.

So what if one of the girls is a lesbian? Will se be banned too or is it ok because she doesn't have a penis?

Well, given the risk I'm talking about mitigating is pregnancy, and babies require one of each type of genitals.....

So what if one of the girls is a lesbian? Will se be banned too or is it ok because she doesn't have a penis?

I am not being deliberately obtuse here as I can understand the concerns totally. What I cannot understand is the total vitriol.

Today 21:24 LEMtheoriginal

I can see that you/we want same sex spaces for our children but surely if someone genuinely identifies themselves as a girl then they are?

How?

Yes I have read it,thanks for checking. I also I'm familiar with old penis and vagina equals pregnancy story. I just get the sense that people here totally dismiss the transgender issue, misunderstand it and don't make any effort to try understand it. I don't believe parents are unreasonable to have concerns, absolutely, ask questions, question those in charge,but if there was more of an effort to try understand then there could be more of an productive dialogue.

surely if someone genuinely identifies themselves as a girl then they are?

If they are female yes, if they are male then obviously not.

In the same way as white person cannot identify as and be accepted as black.

And before I'm jumped on - I mean 'penis producing sperm' as in, that's where it's ejaculated from, not that's where those sperm are manufactured.

I can see that you/we want same sex spaces for our children but surely if someone genuinely identifies themselves as a girl then they are?

And how does that stop their penis producing sperm to impregnate a girl's eggs?

How does that internal feeling mean that girls are supposed to be comfortable getting undressed in front of them?

How is girl defined so that it includes that male-bodied person, and me as a child, but not my sons or my partner as a child?

I can see that you/we want same sex spaces for our children but surely if someone genuinely identifies themselves as a girl then they are?

It's not just rape that people are worried about though is it? I don't think that's what people are saying.