Girlguides now in on the act

I am so perplexed by this. Are people saying that trans people mean harm to others?

I’m the case of trans identified males, they are just as likely to harm women as other males.

Yes, but the organisation's view is that a person is the gender they say they are, from the moment they say it, and so a person who self-identifies as a girl is a girl and so can sleep in the girls' dormitory. Like some other organisations, they're changing or restating their policies to accommodate the changes to the law on gender recognition that the select committee recommended but which have not yet been debated in Parliament and not yet become law.

I've just read about this in one of the papers, and a spokesperson from GirlGuiding has said that they are just bringing things in line with the Equality Act - I'm really surprised that such a massive organisation hasn't taken the time to read the Equality Act which specifically notes exceptions for spaces like dormitories

VerticalBlinds - I was not won over by what HQ said to me. They denied that this represented a switch from being a single sex to single gender organisation (it seems pretty clear to me that it is) and there was a strong undertone that if parents didn't want their daughters to join an organisation that had natal boys in it, they were bigots and so what if they didn't now join.

dropthemic

I know you’re at work, and can’t respond to comments willy nilly.

Could I just ask you, most fervently, to read the link below at some point.

It expands on my post. I have just read it myself as it has been posted on another thread.

It really does give you an overview of exactly how and why this has become a problem far exceeding that of accommodating men with gender dysphoria.

It gives you a timeline of the law. How and why laws have been amended. And explains exactly how they have come to be exploited.

notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/amp/

One of the things of which it has been almost impossible to conceive, is how to accommodate the rights of both trans people and women.

Largely because the trans lobby require total capitulation.

For instance, A Woman’s Place UK have listed five points that they would like implemented. All they really are is extending the exemptions that already exist. And culturally and socially making people aware of those exemptions.

Jess Phillips MP tweeted them and said they sounded reasonable. She has consequently been inundated with threats of rape and abuse.

I accept that you understand the problems here. But, if you have any suggestions, please tell me. I’m more than happy to consider anything that would help.

I'm not sure if anyone wants to hear it

I do please? Very happy to move to a separate thread if people feel that conversation would derail or you'd feel more comfortable.

Apologies fizzywater I should have said sex, or change the sex they wish to be identify as

OK. But as sex can't be changed - so there's a small number of people who are put in the terrible place of desperately wanting to be something they can't be.

The issue we have is, how can we tell the difference between those people, and predators who would fake this condition in order to access girls and women?

Which risks are we willing to increase for girls and women, in order to make these dysphoric people (and those faking it) more comfortable?

If we allow mixed sex accommodation, what are we doing to safeguard children from getting pregnant?

Also all the talk about gender dysphoria -

Girls have always suffered body dysphoria, especially around the onset of adult characteristics coming in. Girls starved themselves and wore baggy clothes when I was a girl, to try to stop periods, stop breasts growing. That doesn't seem to matter so much though, and why is hardly anyone linking it to the modern approach of binders? It's so glaringly obvious why so many girls are "transitioning" yet no-one is questioning why so many girls are distressed with being female. They never have. Well, the girl guides did. Their own research shows that girls are at high risk of inappropriate sexual behaviour by both boys their own age and adult men. Their policy is at odds with this. Their policy is at odds with their whole ethos.

"HQ told me that there were the organisation's values, parents would know what they were signing up to and if they didn't want to join, so be it."

But at the same time, I think most parents would not imagine that boys are now accepted given the history of it as a girls organisation, and of course individual groups don't tell parents if there is a child (or adult - up to 25) going on overnights

I mean I'm quite keen on boys and always was but I think this all sounds like a terrible idea and if they think it won't be exploited then they're nuts.

Lance- I have discussed the difference many times,in lecture halls and in the workplace,I'm saying there isn't much point here as I'm not sure if anyone wants to hear it

I’ll be a very interested to know what your definition of gender is.

Because if you think it it is a set of societal expectations that form a hierarchy, then I’d be amazed if you have been discussing it recently, in public.

In the last eight weeks, at least three public debates centred around the definition of gender have been attacked, violently.

@custarddinosaur

Age range for senior guides is 14 to 25.

I can easily envisage a situation where a 24 year old male would identify as female to gain overnight access to 14 year old girls. Can't you?

Apologies fizzywater I should have said sex, or change the sex they wish to be identify as.
Lance- I have discussed the difference many times,in lecture halls and in the workplace,I'm saying there isn't much point here as I'm not sure if anyone wants to hear it

dropthemic

I think it's somewhat pointless to try discuss the difference between sex and gender here. My point is not about girl guides and the ins and outs about policy. Ordermeacurry you may not believe the same things as other transgender people and their families but I'm just offering another point of view. Ive actually said many times about discussing the issue in a more productive way. Of course people and children should access therapy if they feel they wish to change gender. I would advise any young person the same.

I honestly don’t think you are listening here. Feminist have seen this coming for several years, ever since the self identification bill was first introduced. They have been forensically analysing every part of the upcoming laws. And the implications.

Firstly, it is all about sex and gender. It’s gender when you want to change, but it’s sex when you want to access facilities.

Secondly, you can’t discuss it.

Mumsnet is about the only place that allows oxygen to flow through the debate.

Women everywhere have been threatened, no platformed, their employers threatened, they have been doxxed online. Transactivists’ own hashtag is NoDebate. And they really, really mean it. They are highly organised and go out of their way to target any venue that holds a debate. There are numerous venues who have had to pull out due to threats. Because, as an ideology, a belief system, it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Lastly the memorandum of understanding has effectively eliminated all forms of therapy, other than affirmation. So any underlying problems are ignored. There is no talking therapy to be accessed. If you don’t want your child to go down the medical route, you are left without recourse. High and dry.

Moreover, the guidelines being given out in Scotland expressly say if parents do not agree that their child is trans, then the local authority can intervene.

There isn’t a woman on here who doesn’t have compassion for those with gender dysphoria.

But, as an issue, gender dysphoria is a dot in the distance.

Furthermore, it’s not necessary to have gender dysphoria to be trans. Stonewall’s own website includes fetishist cross dressers as legitimately trans.

This isn’t really, any longer, about dealing with an identity disorder. It’s way, way beyond that.

From opportunistic men, to fetishist cross dressers, to ten girls coming out simultaneously in a school.

The trajectory that the transgender ideology is on has devastating consequences.

Of course people and children should access therapy if they feel they wish to change gender

This is where I get confused about what you're saying - when you say this, do you actually mean change sex? Because I believe gender is a social construct, that there's nothing about me that means I have to like pink and frills, and nothing stopping anyone else liking pink and frills either, except social expectations.

I don't choose who I go into a changing room with based on that though, that's determined on sex - something which no-one has any choice over - you have to learn to live with what you've got, plus any cosmetic changes you can make through hard work or surgery. You are what you are, and for people who have dysphoria, this is where the problem lies, because if it was just gender that's the problem, then that's something feminists can stand shoulder to shoulder with - oppressive gender hierarchies are exactly what we're fighting against.

I think there’s every point in discussing the difference between sex and gender here, and everywhere possible, drop the mic.
Tell me, though, have you tried discussing the difference, and the sex-dependent different needs, anywhere online recently? How long did it take to get a nodebate hashtag from someone?

To add, in case you feel I don't understand or care about people living with gender dysphoria - I do, I have trans friends so have some contact with direct experience as well as what I read. Gender dysphoria is deeply distressing, so are the other types of body dysmorphia such as anorexia. However we don't as a society accept and celebrate an anorexic child perceiving themself as fat and needing to diet, we support and help them up the long, hard road to recovery.

There are very high levels of mental illness found among the trans population. There are very high levels of autism. Particularly among transitioning girls, there's a high level of sexual abuse experiences. These needs should be supported and considered, not hidden under 'if you transition you'll fix everything else'.

Also among the trans population are people who don't have dysphoria but do have autogynephilia - are turned on by dressing as and performing being a woman, especially in woman's spaces, and good old fashioned cross dressers, and the gender rebels who twenty years ago would have had a goth or emo or punk phase in their teenaged and young adult years. No mental illness, but surely questions around whether men with a sexual fetish or men having an identity phase should be removing the rights of women and girls to express it freely?

Increasingly 'detransitioners' are sharing their experiences. Some of them having had extensive surgery or hormone treatment that will affect them for the rest of their lives. Among their experiences are people who say transitioning was a phase they passed through, or a false hope in that they believed it would solve deeper problems but didn't. Transsexuals such as the wonderful Miranda Yardley share their experience of living as a woman over decades, without the need to invade spaces created for the biological disadvantages of being of the female sex,

I don't lack sympathy or understanding, I just see a much bigger picture here that sympathy isn't the answer to.

We can't reduce it all down to just reproductive organs

All mammals are either sperm producers or egg producers. If you are an egg producer, every cell in your body contains DNA that is different from the cells of a sperm producer. Biology is binary. The sex hormones affect almost every organ in the body, including every bone, your liver and your skin.

And it's not just biology. Of course, humans are more than their reproductive organs, but sexual desire and the urge to reproduce are huge drivers of human behaviour. They are why we have the massive porn industry, for a start, and why every women on the planet has experienced unwanted sexual contact of some sort.

No I haven't flounced, just went to bed because I've work today. I think it's somewhat pointless to try discuss the difference between sex and gender here. My point is not about girl guides and the ins and outs about policy. Ordermeacurry you may not believe the same things as other transgender people and their families but I'm just offering another point of view. Ive actually said many times about discussing the issue in a more productive way. Of course people and children should access therapy if they feel they wish to change gender. I would advise any young person the same. To support them during a difficult and confusing time. However a poster above said there is no way they would have a transgender child because they wouldn't entertain the idea (and take it as seriously as if they said they wanted to fly or something along those lines) and would get them therapy. Do you really think that a transgender person would nod their head in agreement with that? That is the type of comment I'm trying to counteract.

We live in an equal society and that means not segregating on sex or gender

LOL. An "equal" society where 99% of the people in jail for sex offences are men, where 1 in 3 women have experienced sexual assault and 100% have experienced unwanted verbal sexual contact. And, no, not all men are potential sex offenders. But the ones who are don't come with a label, which is why girls/women have a right to bodily privacy away from boys/men.

if we tried to make more of an effort to understand trans issues then there may be a productive dialogue. What you described above is sex not gender to be fair

Male/female are sex, I was responding to your question about what makes us male and female? Did I misunderstand?

Gender is a social construct. It varies over time and place and culture, it's expressed through personal choices and influenced by cultural stereotypes of the time. Sex is a fixed biological fact. The two words are being intentionally conflated by the trans movement along with the intentional unilateral changing of meaning of other words like 'woman', and 'feminist' along with an explanation that over time words evolve. Although natural evolution of meaning is a bit different to a political group announcing and enforcing that they have changed a word and everyone else must comply, even though the changed meaning is against their beliefs and principles. Again I find that - well, less scary than morally wrong.

I am gender critical. I believe no matter what your sex you should be free to choose and express your gender anywhere on the sliding scale from extreme masculine to extreme feminine and this should be free from harassment or prejudice around your personal expression. I also believe that very feminine men are feminine men not biological women and vice versa. Sex is a fixed fact, and people of the biological sex class women experience specific disadvantages, needs and disempowerment directly through that biology. Their spaces and provisions intended to reduce this disadvantage should not be commandeered by biologically male people choosing a feminine gender, especially because if you inform yourself from these leaders of the movement as to their beliefs and requirements, they wish to erase all issues regarding female biology from these spaces and provisions. They don't want them named or talked about or focused on because as biologically male people they cannot share in those experiences so find them excluding, hurtful, discriminatory, and don't want them to be part of being 'woman' any more.

Are you ok with this? Genuinely, I'm interested, not wanting you to feel attacked or harassed. I feel an intense power imbalance in this, and intense damage to women. I'm even more concerned that as you say, if both sides would listen - my reading, my attempt to understand shows me #nodebate . There is no room for women to even speak their concerns, and the 'it's so sad people won't be kind and nice' is being used to guilt and shame and emotionally coerce people into surrendering rights they take for granted now but may in a year be gone.

That's unbelievably scary.

I honestly have no idea, Datun. The individual you describe would presumably 'identify as a woman' so would have every right to join. Unless there was evidence of wrongdoing/inappropriate behaviour or they failed a DBS check.

What you described above is sex not gender to be fair

Change gender. Great. But then demand rights based on sex.

Right, so boys, identifying as girls, are sex male, and gender feminine - GG, accommodation etc. has always been split on sex.

Conflating the two when it's convenient, then saying "oh but they're not the same, that's not what I was saying" when it's not is a very dishonest way to debate.

MrsKCastle

As there is a cohort of transwomen who are fetishist cross dressers, and there is no real way to tell the difference, what would the organisation do if they suspected a man such as that wanted to be a guide leader?

How could they do anything about it without being accused of transphobia?

Yes, adult trans women can become guide leaders, but male volunteers have been welcomed for a long time. There are strict rules in place saying that adults cannot share sleeping accommodation with under 18s.

I don't think anyone has brought this up (sorry if I missed it), but isn't it also the case that if the Girl Guides have adopted Gender Identity doctrine, then adult men will now be able to become Guide leaders, and camp with girls while away, etc.