My education re terf v tra on MN

I would like to reinforce the comment about lurkers. I can never come out publicly with any statements on this issue as we have a transman family member and I would never want my stance to hurt his feelings. Instead, I lurk on MN and some FB groups learning, reading and digesting all of the arguments from those wonderful women who are braver than me.

Many thanks to you.

I've been around these boards for years, with a number of name changes. It was dittany about six years ago who I first noticed talking about this and what it might mean for women.

One thing I've noticed is that there has been a definite shift on here from some posters who were initially posting from what they thought was a neutral position saying "Where is the harm in allowing trans people to identify as women? Can't we be nice and inclusive?" These same people are now saying "Actually, this is harmful".

It is good to see.

MNHQ had a period a couple of years ago where they would delete things at the behest of a couple of pro-trans posters who were very invested in reporting practically everything on the FWR boards. Now you see very few deletions (apart from the obvious MRA stuff).

I'd be interested to know how much flak MNHQ are getting from trans activists and lobby groups behind the scenes. Maybe they've even given up trying to silence the debate on Mumsnet, who knows?

Yes, thanks to all frequent posters (special shout out to Datun).
I'm also a lurker (largely!)

I too have been educated by these threads, after coming from a position of being shocked & disappointed at Greer's position.

My peak trans moment was reading an NHS policy that promotes the punishment of women who raise concerns about sharing female hospital wards with people who 'identify as women' (even if they identify as women on a part time basis).

These discussions have provide me with well-needed confidence over the months I've been battling against this. I've reached a point where I'm quite willing to lose my job over it. I'm so angry. Thanks all.

Ditto. I argued with people on here about the issue, then the penny finally dropped when I looked at the FACTS and stopped trying to be the nice, inclusive woman. Bloody hell it was a real “emperor’s new clothes” moment. I’m in my 60’s now and this is the most serious threat to the safety of e9man and girls that I can remember, the proposed changes to the GRA simply sweep away so many protections its horrifying.

MN seems to be one of the few spaces where women are freely 'allowed' to debate this issue without getting shouted down. They should be commended for that.

And we should all feel slightly depressed about that too

However, I think of it in terms of informing the lurkers. The ones who are learning, barely questioning or just seeing what the fuss is about.

Absolutely. Never forget, if you are replying to someone on a thread, you are actually speaking to several hundred other women who are not commenting.

It’s even more effective if someone disagrees on the thread. Because the arguments fall apart. And it’s patently obvious to any lurkers.

Mumsnet has 12 million unique users per month.

That’s a lot of women. And if we can reach them, that’s a lot of power.

Another thank you to the patient, knowledgable women on here from me too. I do not post on here often, but am making my voice well and truly heard on twitter. It's best for my characters to be limited :D

My family think we're all crazy, putting ourselves in a position to be harassed and abused. Though thankfully, they do understand what is at stake. However, I think of it in terms of informing the lurkers. The ones who are learning, barely questioning or just seeing what the fuss is about.

The patient, consistent and fact based disscusions on here, twitter and elsewhere cannot be easily dismissed (not without some spectacular cognitive dissonance in any case). Particularly when contrasted with the behaviour, manipulative campaigning and sometimes outright lies of those who seek to silence us.

It's depressing and dangerous if USA and Canada are going straight ahead with this.
I'm another one who found out what was happening by reading on Mumsnet.

I'm so grateful to mumsnet for allowing this debate. I feel proud that in the UK I see more questioning than in say the USA or Canada.

I have been heartened by this too busyboysmum. I’ve seen women from those countries say that there is far more questioning about this here, prior to laws changing, then there was there.

They say they can say absolutely nothing now. That debate is even more stifled.

Kind of makes me glad I live here.

I wasn't aware of the issues either until I read about them here. I'm very grateful.

Same journey here.

I never realised debate was being stifled actually until I tried to post some gentle queries on another site that was supposed to be about promoting girls. They all got immediately deleted. I was incensed. None were at all abusive or provocative.

So I found this board which I had never ventured on before. I think I was afraid. I'm a really ordinary mum and was scared that my version of feminism would be too lame. I didn't know all the terms but I read and I read and I educated myself on here.

I'm so grateful to mumsnet for allowing this debate. I feel proud that in the UK I see more questioning than in say the USA or Canada. And by people I respect not just unpleasant characters whose other views I don't agree with.

MNHQ have always allowed debate. But they were a little trigger-happy with the delete button earlier on in terms of misgendering, etc.

They would have come under intense pressure from trans pressure groups who monitor this site.

But they have allowed debate to flourish as long as nobody breaks guidelines.

They are instrumental in this issue reaching hundreds of women.

Which is why there is definitely more traffic.

It was the women on the FWR boards who first alerted everybody.

Being feminists their skills at spotting misogyny are highly honed. And they saw through it immediately.

The ideology does not stand up to scrutiny. But it takes time for people to relinquish what they feel are right on credentials over this particular issue.

But debating is what does it. It gradually becomes very clear.

And when the scales fall, the clang is deafening. Much like feminism, actually!

No one should feel bad at not having seen it, though. The marketing has been very effective.

The issue needs to reach as many women as possible. It is highly detrimental to women everywhere. Not just this generation, but generations to follow.

Redefining the very word woman has devastating consequences for the rights of women.

I started reading the trans threads on MN in the aftermath of Germaine Greer’s Newsnight interview a couple of years ago. I wanted to understand why she was getting so much flack when what she said seemed so self-evident (from a biological/scientific POV). I had no idea the rabbit hole was so deep, but I’ve found the FWR boards really helpful.

Is there a lot more traffic on these boards of late?

Yes I think so.

Is MN allowing more open debate on these issues than previously?

Absolutly. There was a point where nearly every trans thread was deleted despite its content.
It appears that MN are allowing debate around trans issues as long as they follow talk guidlines.

Mumsnet is definitely allowing free discussion of this topic thank goodness.

There were a few incidents at the beginning but I am grateful that this discussion can happen here now. It is so important.

I still have the odd discussion in RL where it is clear that I am talking about aggressive transactivists, late transitioning and probably with AGP as the people who are now framing the debate in this country, whilst the person I am talking to is thinking of someone with gender dysphoria who is really struggling and trying hard to live their lives. The mums net threads on this topic help to bridge the gap in understanding.

Hi Witch

I’ve pretty much had the same experience. Thought it was a load of fuss to start with, got sick of reading about it and frankly thought everyone was overreacting. Then I read a tiny bit of a thread, then some more, then read everything I could lay my hands on. De-lurked, just joined twitter for the sole purpose of supporting those voices who speak out so much more eloquently than I ever could. Contacted my MP, which I will do again.

I would have called myself a feminist before but oh my god I have got the rage now and I’m channelling into supporting the effort against the GRA going through in its current incarnation.