My education re terf v tra on MN

Feminist Current booted Meghan Murphy off at one point for being gender critical. I'm glad that she is back...

Also Madhair I think you are doing a great job.

Totally agree with you Witch. I too would like to thank Datun and others for their very informative posts.

Also done the journey in last 6 months or so - been a feminist a very long time - but always thought of myself as not really radical - it’s so good to have a space where you don’t get abused for basically saying what feels like common senses

I'm another lurker who has learned so much from these threads, so I want to thank you. I was fairly live and let live, knowing a couple of transwomen irl who are just getting on with their lives. But these threads brought me to peak trans when I realised it was people like them who were being thrown under the bus, too. And the whole #nodebate thing terrifies me. Where are we, communist China? It's crazy.

One thing I've really struggled with is talking to my teenage dc about it. At first they were all oh mum stop being so bigoted and transphobic. But I managed to have a longer talk to dd (now 17) about it all and showed her some of the articles. What changed her mind was telling her about the cotton ceiling - she was appalled by this and has since become peak trans herself, and convinced one of her best friends who is gay and had not yet seen through the narrative but now does. So well done mumsnet - this is getting through to youngsters too. Ds is less easy to persuade, but does agree about sex being a biological fact, so we have got somewhere with him. A way to go, though. He's very stubborn and still thinks I'm being a bit of a bigot. I'll keep trying... It's so hard when they are bombarded from all sides by TRA narratives, youtubers they come across etc, and Twitter. It's actually flipping scary because some people on a Pokemon chat room were telling my son he was really a girl because he doesn't like football or rugby. :( I think he's got past that one - tells me he never thought that was actually true, because we'd brought him up to believe he could be whatever he wanted and like whatever he wants as who he is - but it's very, very difficult to break down the walls once they are up. Any more advice appreciated!

I’m another lurker and very infrequent poster on FWR who has learned so much from being here. And who has moved from a pro-trans position to a gender critical one as a result.

I find the issue hard to contemplate sometimes ... a woman is a woman. How can that basic fact be up for debate. It’s like the same as debating whether an orange is orange

Whenever I hear this discussion, this is the image that comes into my head:

MissMoneyPlant

We so need an edit function!

I love this thread

Imherefornow

I get what you are saying - that not even the marginised group they think they are helping will benefit.

Is your autocorrect a TRA?

Olenna there is a concerted effort from somewhere and someone to peddle an anti-woman narrative to justify the violence and hatred that some TERFs perpetrate

Typo? You mean TRAs, not TERFs?

Is your autocorrect a TRA?

I'm another former lurker who arrived here after Germaine Greer was no-platformed in 2015.

Thing is, I turned radical over the trans issue but then read so much more and became a rad fem in general.

Spectacular own goal for the misogynist TRA's! :)

FWR is a brilliant resource and I'm grateful that there is this platform for reasoned debate (and supportive face palming)

Isn't it crap that I'm grateful for somewhere to speak freely?

Anyway, today's face palm moment for me was reading this comment on Reddit: "TERF's are wealthy and organized and want the erasure (read deaths) of Trans lives. We lost 2 generations to their clinic closures and hostile tactics. They are no more victims than the KKK was during Jim Crow. mp3: get out the way, bitch"

I think that the poster really believes this, and has been fed this narrative by someone. I find it quite scary, like when you dig into Britain First or the BNP, read stuff and think "They actually believe that this is what is happening, that Muslims refuse to serve people wearing a poppy and every immigrant gets given a 7 bedroom council house the minute they step off the plane".

People don't just come up with this stuff on their own, there is a concerted effort from somewhere and someone to peddle an anti-woman narrative to justify the violence and hatred that some TERFs perpetrate. It's a form of grooming or radicalisation, IMHO

Another thank you from me too.

I stumbled across this board years ago and left straight away - the people on here were just plain scary, and feminism was just so seventies and after all we are all equal now.

Re trans people I felt sorry for this poor oppressed minority, then something made my critical thinking kick in.

At first I just lurked on this board too scared to post as I wasn't a proper feminist. But I read it avidly, and followed up all the references and after the last year or so all my thinking about feminism has completely changed, and this is now my most visited MN board.

So a massive thank you from me too

I too have mumsnet to thank for enlightening and informing me.

I find the issue hard to contemplate sometimes ... a woman is a woman. How can that basic fact be up for debate. It’s like the same as debating whether an orange is orange ... so obscure it’s just a bit of a head fuck sometimes. And then you’ve got the fear of being labelled bigoted if you do talk out.

It became apparent that me and a close friend disagree on the issue yesterday. I think this is my push to dive into the rabbit hole and equip myself with all the information available so that I too can add my voice to the debate.

Thank you mumsnet feminist boards. There will be many more lurkers like me who are reading what you have to say even if we’re not yet speaking out ourselves.

It wasn't my intention to imply that the impact on women and children was irrelevant in comparisson to those who genuinely struggle with dysphoria. It isn't.

However, it is yet another consequence to trans activism that needs to be highlighted in my opinion. Particularly as trans allies who are fighting for the 'rights of trans people' think that it is these dysphoric people they are supporting. When in fact it is exactly those individuals that they are unintentionaly damaging due to a lack of understanding.

I'm sure the truly gender dysphoric will be okay - well TIMs anyway. I notice that no one irl gives a shit about any of this until you send Miranda Yardley stuff their way. Women's voices are never very persuasive for misogynist majority.

Having said that I of course support the needs of everyone with mental heath issues to get the services they require - including the gender dysphoric, and support the gender non-conforming to live lives free from harassment, discrimination or violence.

Let's not forget that those who truly stand to lose are women and girls.

I would add (after my incredibly long rant ), that I feel incredibly outraged on behalf of the truly dysphoric. Not only has their condition and struggle been appropriated by the trans narrative, they find themselves in danger of being ex-communicated from their communities and ultimately society as a whole.

While the recent press coverage has been largely positive for rad fems in raising awareness, it has rendered legally recognised trans women and the dysphoric as the enemy. They are being tarred with the same brush by the average person who has little understanding of the nuance of the trans debate. Indeed, tweets and comments from those who are not otherwise invested in the debate are becoming increasingly intolerant, abusive and bigoted.

The backlash that the current Trans Activism will have on the genuinely dysphoric will be immense. And I am truly sorry for my part in it.

Where is the harm in allowing trans people to identify as women? Can't we be nice and inclusive?

This is absolutely the position I came from. Live and let live...

I still think it is absolutely vital that the genuinely dysphoric, who have earned the right to be legally recognised as their 'acquired gender' are supported and we should be inclusive. I also believe there is a need to re-examine the process of obtaining a GRC.

What most allies of trans activism do not appreciate, is that the gender dysphoria narrative has been hijacked by those who could not otherwise legitimately acquire a Gender Recognition Certificate. Hence the push for self id. Self id lies in conflict with the rights afforded to women and legally recognised trans women. And those trans women who object are shunned and abused by the very community which should be there to protect them.

Additionally, in order to further legitimise their demands, TA's are weaponizing the turbulent nature of adolescence and are actively influencing policy regarding the affirmation and medicalisation of 'trans identities'. It is in my view propaganda and indoctrination of young people, based on ideology as opposed to research. The politicised nature of this debate and the impact of trans propaganda was highlighted in the recent interview with Dr Bernadette Wren in the Guardian. I was heartened to hear her advocating a sensible approach to the treatment of young people and recognising the impact of the trans narrative on their service, despite the immense scrutiny that the Tavistock is under from both sides of the debate...the author of the piece however, spectacularly missed the point!

TA's simultaneously deny the research regarding likelihood of desistance and the existence of the increase in detransitioners. The only acceptable stance is presented as 'transition or die'. Anyone who advises caution in this 'literally want trans people to diiieee!!!'... They do love their hyperbole.

They are not doing this because they care about young people. If this were the case, efforts would be spent campaigning for additional research, resources and mental health support to get to the root causes of this increase in gender dysphoria. They would be as concerned as everyone else about the danger of mistakenly transitioning young people and working to discover the best approach to differentiate between those who will persist and desist. Including supporting the best and safest methods regarding the treatment of those who present with gender dysphoria.

We can now see that the TA's narrative is incredibly manipulative, yet for those who dare not, or will not scratch beneath the surface, it is also incredibly compelling as the next social cause. To question it is akin to heresy!

I think what "pro trans rights" supporters need to think about is that this issue is obviously very complex. It is, like most things in the world, not a case of the good guys vs the bad guys. It is nuanced and we should strive to do right by everyone.
But in order for this to happen we need a full, evidence based consultation regarding the proposed changes to the GRA. That's it! A review of the evidence...actual evidence that should be examined and scrutinised by a, as far as is possible, independent and unbiased panel. Though granted, this will be difficult to assure

I can't understand how anyone could think this is unreasonable. I can't understand why anybody wouldn't want this to happen for the good of everyone. Yet Trans Activists are actively working against this.
So...for anyone who is reading this and thinks that mumsnet is a hive of intolerant and bigoted women. Ask yourselves why?

I find this thread very heartwarming.

Irl for years now radical feminists have been connected between USA, Canada, UK, Australia, etc, fighting the corner, being subjected to terrible harassment, nearly or actually losing their jobs over it.

The Canadian and American feminists have been warning the UK long in advance - letting us know that the madness is coming our way soon, with Sheila Jeffreys, fearlessly bringing it all together and speaking about it. So many have been no-platformed, every meeting to discuss it has been subjected to huge effort to have it shut down by harassing the venue to cancel meetings, which has escalated to the point we saw Maria MacLachlan being physically attacked at the meeting point (because you can't openly advertise venues to discuss this) and then Helen Steel being attacked soon after for defending leafletting.

It is great that Mumsnetters have been there throughout all this and amazing that Mumsnet listened to the many Spartacuses and got rid of a few key trolls - to mean this place really is the only place people can speak freely about it. But hats off to those amazing, tenacious, fearless and committed women who have continued to organise in real life at great risk too!

I also started reading/lurking these boards back in the days of Dittany, she really helped raise my feminist consciousness. Despite that, I still didn't get the trans issue, I thought it was just a case of being nice and inclusive, I didn't grasp the implications. I don't know what turned me, possibly an article in the New Yorker/NYT? in 2014 that outlined what the beef was between feminists and trans activists. I know that Owen Jones and cunnilingusgate in spring '15 was my peak moment (first of many).

Does anyone know where Dittany is now... does she blog at all, I'd like to read her writing?

Popchyk

MN may have stopped, but some users haven't. I could weep, honestly

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3093502-AIBU-to-ask-MNHQ-if-we-can-have-a-trans-discussion-section?watched=1&msgid=73539233#73539233