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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can transwomen live as women?

105 replies

chocladoodle · 21/11/2017 15:31

I've been reading about the council appointed women's officer and some of the responses got me thinking. Obviously biology means that transwomen can never truly experience the lived experience of women, neither than being conditioned as male throughout their childhood in anyway can compensate the privilege automatically bestowed on them.

In this example it is especially ludicrous as we are talking about a 19yr old, but what about older transwoman. Could they, are they ever going to be accepted as 'woman' without controversy. Is there ever a right time for them to be given 'womens' posts etc.

As women we all have different life experiences and different needs/priorities. Some are lesbian, some heterosexual, some married to men, some to women, some with children, some in full time successful careers, some care givers, some unable to work because of childcare, some disabled etc etc. We all have different takes on life, and I will always hold onto biology to define us as a class, but no one woman can speak for all us. A straight woman, married to an abusive male, struggling with 3 children under 5 has very different needs to a middle age butch lesbian, with no children and a successful career, for example. Neither of these women could truly understand the others way of life.

With that in mind, is appointing a 'woman's post' to a transwoman (not a 19 yr old) that controversial? Until today I would have always said yes, must be a female, I'm not as sure now. I'm hoping some of you who have a better knowledge could help me get my head round this.

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SuperLoudPoppingAction · 21/11/2017 16:41

I'm not 100% sure a trans person could make an excellent lgbtq officer as it's hard to occupy that position and truly represent gay men, lesbian women and trans people with even-handedness and objectivity. i'm not sure who could occupy such a position, though - would prefer an LGB officer and a gender issues officer or something.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 21/11/2017 16:39

a) middle-aged butch lesbians might well have been in abusive het relationships in their 20s or 30s and therefore would have lived experience of this exact scenario
b)women have all experienced a girlhood with commonalities - not identical girlhoods but we all experience eg being treated as other or less-than in comparison to boys and men, we all grow up believing we may menstruate, be at risk of pregnancy, go through menopause etc.
I wouldn't wait in the toilets until someone exactly like me came along to ask for a sanitary towel - I would ask the first woman who came along because it's likely she would understand my situation.

MrsToddsShortcut · 21/11/2017 16:36

A trans woman, however well meaning, will never experience the myriad medical issues that affect women on a daily basis. They will have no experience of pregnancy, childbirth and the discrimination that goes alongside those things.

They will never experience the socialisation that leaves us with our voices spoken over, our concerns diminished and our needs not taken seriously.

They will never be expected to take on the bulk of wifework and childcare that keep their homes running. They will never experience that level of emotional labour while trying to juggle a job.

A trans woman may well make an excellent LGBT+ officer, but just cannot share enough experience with a biological woman to fully represent their interests at a political level.

Besides, what does living as a woman mean anyway? Without the lived socialisation and biological experience/oppression, it boils down to dressing on so called 'women's' clothes, having a feminine haircut and wearing make-up.

It seems to boil down to trying to appear as much like a feminine woman as possible in the hope that people believe you are one. Which is one thing, but does not in any way define what a woman is.

salmonofwisdom · 21/11/2017 16:34

Counterpoint, you have completely misunderstood what it is to be trans if you think that trans women could just identify as 'effeminate gay men'...Hmm

Before making rude assumptions about trans women, it is important to actually speak to people who are trans. You might find that actually trans people of any or no gender are subject to similar types of violence as women. They certainly do not hold the privilege of cis men! Honestly, all it takes is to listen to trans people to realise that they might actually be very good at fighting for womens rights because they understand what it is so be subject to violence and oppression.

ArcheryAnnie · 21/11/2017 16:27

Transwomen can sometimes pass as women, and live in a way that is very similar to the way some women do, but they can't live as women because they aren't women.

And they shouldn't take women's places, women's scholarships, women's anything else.

chocladoodle · 21/11/2017 16:25

Fartyghost. Even if they have lived 30yr as a woman. Diagnosed, etc rubber stamped GRC

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counterpoint · 21/11/2017 16:24

You can live as a woman (social) but you are not a woman unless you are XX.

Maybe one day, genetically modified people will have the ultimate choice but till then, if you have a Y chromosome, stay out of my kitchen! Wink

chocladoodle · 21/11/2017 16:23

I meant to say GRC

If a person has been granted a GRC, is it still not acceptable for them to get posts etc in their reassigned gender.

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fartyghost · 21/11/2017 16:22

It's not right for them to be appointed to women's posts no, by that I mean posts which the equal opportunities allowed to be advertised as for women only - so women's officers, attendants in women's toilets etc.

It's as inappropriate as it would be if I were to black up my face and then get a job only open to a Black person or sit in a wheelchair then hold a position which was only open to a wheelchair user (if one were to actually exist of course)

counterpoint · 21/11/2017 16:20

The "black" and "white" labels are non-starters as comparisons here.

They are the equivalent of gender which is social engineering

SneakAttackDamage · 21/11/2017 16:19

What about a 50 year old biological male who went through HRT and full surgery at the age of 20, and has been living as a woman for 30 years.

counterpoint · 21/11/2017 16:17

I don't like labels either. Ergo I'm not interested in a man adorning women's attire and trying to fool me.

DJBaggySmalls · 21/11/2017 16:17

Can Rachel Dolezal represent black people? Because Black people say no, she can't.

chocladoodle · 21/11/2017 16:14

Salmonofwisom. . I don't think transwomen are taking over the world, but they have taken women's positions

ItsAll. I put that quote in inverted commas as it's not my view either. I'm just asking if that's what it'll all come to.

It seems that it all comes down to biology and lived experiences, naturally. Therefore, why do even have the option of obtaining a GNC.

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Iris65 · 21/11/2017 16:12

I’m not OK with the phrase ‘butch lesbian’. It may be the case that some lesbians use that term, but this is similar to black people reclaiming and using the n word. It doesn’t mean that other races can use it.

Iris65 · 21/11/2017 16:10

a biological woman is socialised from birth in a different way from a biological man. That 'back story' is the same for every biological woman, from childhood onwards.....the embodiment of a female experience does matter

I completely agree. Although one might argue that a transwoman may be more sensitive too and more eager to identify women’s concerns and issues. I remember my exFIL saying to me that no one was a more devout Catholic than a convert!

counterpoint · 21/11/2017 16:03

If there are 'butch lesbians' then there are 'effeminate gay men' and perhaps some of these trans people could identify better as such.

Certainly neither of those terms holds any sway with the biological sex of male or female.

shutitandtidyupgitface · 21/11/2017 16:02

With that in mind, is appointing a 'woman's post' to a transwoman (not a 19 yr old) that controversial?

Yes. Because they aren't a woman at all, and have no chance of appreciating the things that matter to the job. In fact their own agenda actually precludes even an attempt at understanding the needs of the job, since they deny the biological basis of womenhood in the first place.
How can a transwoman (ie a male) fight for womens rights and needs when they deny them in the first place?

salmonofwisdom · 21/11/2017 16:00

I've always hated that transwomen have taken positions aimed at women, in politics, colleges etc. It seems to be happening more just now as it's on 'trend'.

Despite what you think, transwomen are not taking over the world you know!

tiktok · 21/11/2017 15:57

Butch lesbian is fine - many butch lesbians identify as such.

Elendon · 21/11/2017 15:56

Sorry, didn't read your latest post.

Women have been extremely accepting of demands made upon them by males. Throughout centuries and millennia.

Perhaps the fact that we are no longer listening and enabling men is troubling?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/11/2017 15:55

'They are just another type of woman'

But they aren't. They are a type of man.

Elendon · 21/11/2017 15:52

What do you need to get your head around exactly?

Because if you don't know exactly what it is you need to get your head around, then I doubt anyone can help you.

chocladoodle · 21/11/2017 15:49

I've always hated that transwomen have taken positions aimed at women, in politics, colleges etc. It seems to be happening more just now as it's on 'trend'. But will there ever be a time that we, as women, would accept that as ok. 'They are just another type of woman'.

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chocladoodle · 21/11/2017 15:45

I was deliberately using stereotypes to describe two different scenarios , I apologise if I have offended anyone.

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