Can transwomen live as women?

As regards the vaginal (re)construction attempted red-herring -- I think you'll find the modern procedure is to culture cells from the nearby tissues, use a scaffold, then implant the grown vagina.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn25407-exclusive-my-lab-grown-vagina-and-hopes-for-a-family/

The essential point being that this is only possible because she is genetically female hence has the genes for it. MRKHS occurs in females and effects the development of (some) parts of the reproductive system.

And this is all a red-herring anyway, because these various developmental issues and intersex conditions have quantifiable measurable physical effects. A totally normal biological male who just declares he is actually a woman is not related in any conceivable way, either before or after any surgical or hormonal modification they may or may not undergo.

i Is this person a woman or not? (No trans element in this link - just CAIS - Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome):

The intersex community have specifically asked that they NOT be included in any discussions on transexuality.

And I knew who Bruce Jenner was - I watched 'Can't Stop the Music ' with him and the Village People

As an aside, on the issue of representation: my test is always whether the constituent group are happy to be represented by the individual in question. Maybe the women of the Labour party in the area in question are happy to be represented by a transwoman. Maybe disabled people are happy to be represented by a non-disabled person. Maybe parents are happy to be represented by someone who is child-free by choice.

Provided that they have a genuine say in the matter - and understand who they are voting for - I am sort of relaxed about it. BUT I would think that there are very few people with the wider life experience, empathy and humility to do a representative and lobbying job justice if they have no direct, personal experience of the issues that most concern their constituency.

I do think the "living as a woman" stuff is problematic, but I would rather that there was something like this than it being possible to wake up one day and decide to transition.

I'm trying to think of parallel processes with significant impact on one's life, but can't think of any very good ones.

I know that women who ask to be sterilised are frequently delayed by doctors to make sure that they are certain they won't change their mind. And it's not possible to get married (other than in Gretna Green) without giving public notice and allowing a minimum amount of time to pass. Joining the army is a drawn out process: you can't just drop into a recruiting office and enlist right away. In many countries, if you apply for a visa on the basis of a marriage or partnership, you have to satisfy the authorities that the relationship is enduring and genuine.

So I think it's right that there is some sort of requirement, even though it's not an ideal situation.

Is this person a woman or not? (No trans element in this link - just CAIS - Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome):

Copied from another thread (credit to pisacake

Transgender:

• No ambiguities in innate biological sex characteristics.
• Self-declared gender does not match biology
• A full and functional reproductive system
• A choice to transition in manner of own choosing
• Identical twins with one twin transgender will not necessarily have other twin transgender
• No in utero test possible
• Can always compete in sport as biological sex. May be able to compete in self-declared gender

Intersex:

• Has biological variation on body from female/male norm
• May have genetic, chromosomal and hormonal differences and differences in whole of body, particularly sex organs.
• Likely to be infertile
• May be subject to irreversible surgery as an infant
• Identical twins will both be intersex if one is
• Can be tested for many conditions in utero, and subject to termination
• May or may not be able to compete in sport in either sex.

Not the same thing at all.

What about a 50 year old biological male who went through HRT and full surgery at the age of 20, and has been living as a woman for 30 years.

Someone whose formative years were spent as a male, you mean? Jeez.

counterpoint
Is this person a woman or not? (No trans element in this link - just CAIS - Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome):
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11381463/Woman-born-with-no-womb-gives-birth-to-miracle-twins.html
She is genetically male with XY chromosomes. No-one had any idea she was anything other than a perfectly normal little girl at birth. The doctors were probably perfectly satisfied; the midwife would have held her legs apart shortly after birth and declared "congratulations - you have a baby girl". Her parents would have registered a girl and even she herself would have grown up as a girl with no "gender identity" issues whatsoever. In fact no idea that anything was "different" about her until she was 19.

Yet - with a greater or lesser feeling of loss - she's barred from your kitchen due to having a Y chromosome.

Likewise, this woman was born with (presumably) XX chromosomes, but without a uterus, cervix and only a partial vagina.
www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a9100737/womankind-woman-born-without-womb-vagina/
She needed a vaginal re-construction. So is she a woman, if she wasn't born with a vagina? Is it in fact a vagina at all?? As one MN user posted in regard to such re-construction surgery "it's not a vagina - it's a hole made for sex". I can understand how the distinction would be lost on some men, but it's important to women.

Just a thought.

I'll leave the interested reader to read up on Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS), Mayer Rokitansky Küster Hauser Syndrome (MRKH) and the (remarkably simple) role of the Y-chromosome.

IMO, a new GRA would be appropriate for intersex people, and they shouldn't have to pay a fee.

Medical conditions that are severe and long term (which dysphoria is both) are already covered by the disability section.

Datun Kelly Mahoney was well known as a succesful boxing promoter prior to transition. I had heard of him even just as a casual boxing fan.
Chaz Bono is a famous FTT , though probably would not be famous if not born to famous parents. Though they're not alone in that respect.

vesuvia

Yes, I agree about Bruce Jenner.

Although there are now very few people who have not heard of him. Whereas before, you would have had to have been into sport.

He’s now famous for nothing more than being trans.

People with severe gender dysphoria would be negatively affected by this though, and I think this point needs further exploration

Why? My understanding of gender dysphoria is that you feel in the wrong body. If people have gender dysphoria they should be able to get the treatment they need (even surgery if it is properly researched to be the best option). But do they really need to become "officially" the opposite sex?

The law wasn't written with the intention of overwriting women surely.

Title IX in the US was a law written specifically to protect women on the basis of their sex. It is the exact same law that allowed trans people to access everything female.

“No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.”

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX

DonkeySkin wrote - "boys who are being 'transitioned' from a very young age are not being socialised like girls - they are being socialised like boys in the midst of an abusive medical experiment."

Thanks for pointing out that distinction. I agree with you.

Datun wrote - "All the famous men who transition? Bruce Jenner, Kelly Maloney, Zoey Tur, Paris Lees, Shon Faye, Jane Fae, India Willoughby, Juno Dawson, Jazz Jennings.
Who the hell had ever heard of them before they transitioned? Even Bruce Jenner was an add-on to the Kardashians for the general public."

I agree with you about everyone you have listed, except for Jenner.

Jenner, when known as Bruce Jenner, was world famous in the 1970s, so if people have not heard of Jenner until recently that is a function of time passing, not that nothing noteworthy was ever achieved by Jenner when known as Bruce.

chocladoodle I agree. The law needs to do away with the thing whereby a GRC means for all intents and purposes you are of the opposite sex.

I'm almost tempted to say ditch the GRA altogether. I'm pretty sure discrimination due to gender presentation is already in the equality act.

This would massively simplify everything. You can present how you like and can't be discriminated against bit you can't change your sex That way everyone is protected.

And I'm sorry but I'm starting to not give a shit that TIMs insist they are women - they are not and they should not be allowed in female spaces at all.

Previous to all this shit I would have said live and let live, bit thanks to the TRAs it has become clear that sex can't be changed , and in single sex spaces must remain single sex without exception - there is no other safe way to draw a line.

I'd strengthen the Equality Act so that it was a hell of a lot clearer about protecting women, and at this point in the game I'd do away with the GRA altogether. Let men wear whatever clothes they like, use whatever name they like, live however they like, all with full protection from harrassment, but don't give them the right to claim anywhere that they are women.

I think that there could be a universal experience shared by all
transgender-identifying male people that is not shared by any female people.

It is:
wanting to transition from male/a boy/a man to female/a girl/a woman. i.e. the very fact of their male "transness".

(Women and girls who are not transgender would feel no transness. Women and girls who are transgender can only ever feel the female version of transness - i.e. wanting to be male, which is opposite and different to male transness.)

Could another way of putting this be: no female person has ever wanted to transition from male to female (because they are already female) nor return to being male (to cover the case of some detransitioning transwomen who consider themselves to have transitioned from male to female and then reverted to male). Could this perhaps be used as a response to the point often claimed by TRAs that there is no universal female experience?

DonkeySkin

You’ve nailed it.

Anyone who believes that transitioning means you live as a woman is sorely mistaken.

All the famous men who transition? Bruce Jenner, Kelly Maloney, Zoey Tur, Paris Lees, Shon Faye, Jane Fae, India Willoughby, Juno Dawson, Jazz Jennings.

Who the hell had ever heard of them before they transitioned? Even Bruce Jenner was an add-on to the Kardashians for the general public. And Kelly Maloney, feted and celebrated purely for being trans. I had no idea who he was before.

Give me a list of the top 10 transmen.

I’ll wait...

All those women who have transitioned and reached the dizzy heights of male privilege?

I only know of two transmen. One of them was famous for giving birth, the other in the papers for being raped. That’s living as a women.

The stupidity around this is ridiculous.

Transwomen who pass, shout it from the rooftops.

They do not, in anyone’s universe, live as women.

No transwoman can possibly know what is like to be a woman. No matter how many tablets they take or operations they have.

Just like no woman can possibly know what it is like to be a transwoman.

To lump them as "the same" is bonkers

And, I resent the fact that I spent so much of my career-building life fighting against the vagaries of a fulsome menstrual cycle that disarmed me for one week out of four. Exams, meetings, deadlines all met and passed with hard work and gritting my teeth against pain, confusion and impractical toilet visits etc etc etc.

I did all this because as a biological woman I am encumbered by nature/biology to do the hardest part to perpetuate the species.

So I resent one of the others, who has to do nothing much but spew some juice when having fun, to choose to slip on a dress and turn round and steal the gifts that should be mine or other natural-born women.

Vesuvia, I would go further and argue that the boys who are being 'transitioned' from a very young age are not being socialised like girls - they are being socialised like boys in the midst of an abusive medical experiment.

It's impossible for parents, doctors, teachers - anyone who is aware of the boy's true sex, to treat that boy 'like a girl'. Because they know what he actually is, and will be acting accordingly, even if only subconsciously. Further, the cognitive dissonance the child will inevitably feel over the fact that his 'true self' exists in a physical self that is to be socially disguised and medically altered, at the same time as he is receiving excessive praise for being 'special' and 'brave', means his perception of his social situation cannot be like that of his female peers.

Similarly, even the few adult male transitioners who manage to 'pass' as female are not really being treated as women if anyone around them is aware of their trans status. The knowledge on the part of other people that the 'trans woman' is male gives him authority and entitlements that mere 'cis' women can only dream of.

In her book Sex Changes, Christine Benvenuto writes about the surreal experience of witnessing how her husband's transition to a 'woman' actually invested him with greater male authority than he had previously possessed. Once he started living in his feminine persona, he and everyone around him (therapists, friends, 'feminist' supporters) emphasised to Christine and her children the primacy of HIS needs, HIS feelings at all times. He was allowed to behave like a supreme patriarch within the family, and the feelings of his wife and children did not matter one bit. This is actually the opposite of what people expect of women - they are naturally expected to prioritise their husbands' and children's needs over their own, and most do so without a second thought.