Are/should male norms be the benchmark for female 'equality'? Should 'femininity' be prized too?

"But why is it always the woman that has to take the risk and the hit to her career? Children have 2 parents. This is basic feminism, I cannot believe we still have to defend women's rights to be parents and work in 2017!"

She doesn't, and exactly.

Me and my partner have planned that when we have kids, after mat leave/SPL we can both go 4 days a week. I never for a second assumed it would automatically be me - why? We have the same job in the same company, why does me having a vagina mean that I have to step down? No way. The kid is a responsibility of both parents.

"But why is it always the woman that has to take the risk and the hit to her career? Children have 2 parents. This is basic feminism, I cannot believe we still have to defend women's rights to be parents and work in 2017!"

Oh yeah and definitely this!

I'd add that, even when both parents work full time, it is still more often the woman who ends up doing the majority of the additional work of running the home, organising childcare etc etc. So it's not as simple as women just going out to work. We need men to expect to do as much of the unpaid caring and domestic labour. I think (and hope) that this is gradually changing but it seems to be slow, slow progress. Society's expectations still have a huge role to play in creating this dynamic and a lot of us have unconsciously internalised it even when we set out to make a more equal partnership. Then fighting our own expectations on top of society's becomes exhausting and it is often easier to just give in and play the caring role, regardless of whether it comes naturally or not

But why is it always the woman that has to take the risk and the hit to her career? Children have 2 parents. This is basic feminism, I cannot believe we still have to defend women's rights to be parents and work in 2017!

It’s not that hard to get back into a job after being a SAHM.

I think that’s very industry dependent. A job maybe - many careers are much harder.

It’s not that hard to get back into a job after being a SAHM.

Yes but if you're out of a job for 5-8 years, good luck getting back in.

You don't have to totally give up your career to be there for your kids. You and your partner could both work 3-4 days a week, putting your kid in nursery 1-3 days a week, then both go back to full-time once they're in school.

There's a thread in parenting asking if anyone regrets having kids. Lots on there saying they love their kids to bits but have hated the day to day business of parenting (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/3087833-Does-anybody-regret-becoming-a-parent)

So I think it is fair to say that being forced into doing that full time is oppressive, especially if your partner escapes from the social pressure to take the lion's share of the burden

I've got no children, but I feel like I'd much rather be a SAHD than perform my excruciatingly boring office job. And having four nieces/nephews I know it's not easy work!

But I guess I'd feel differently if not was expected of me.

Or, if as discussed in the other thread, once you'd started, you looked up a few years later and realised you were pretty much trapped, and couldn't even get that boring office job any more.

But I guess I'd feel differently if not was expected of me.

I guess you might. And not everyone finds their jobs excruciatingly boring, many get satisfaction from their work and/or enjoy the rewards and/or the camaraderie of the workplace. Most of the white heat of child care takes place over a relatively short period if you have the average of two children - around 10- 15 years - whereas most people's working life is around 40 years, so it is as well not to spork it on the alter of domesticity, if you can avoid it.

if it was

I've got no children, but I feel like I'd much rather be a SAHD than perform my excruciatingly boring office job. And having four nieces/nephews I know it's not easy work!

But I guess I'd feel differently if not was expected of me.

Fizzy -"servitude"? Seriously? I'm talking about looking after one's own babies, and you're describing it as domestic slavery?

No, I call being the only one expected to do that, and all the domestic duties, including those that solely benefit the man of the house, and having that sold to me as as rewarding as going out to work (and yet strangely not desired by men despite how wonderful it is to hoover and wash up every day) is domestic slavery.

This is what I mean - because something has been associated with women rather than men, now women are denigrating it as viciously as possible.

Sorry, clearly mopping the floor and picking up dirty socks is something you enjoy, you go ahead and enjoy it.

Personally, I, the men in my life, and every woman I know find it to be drudgery that is necessary to maintain a house, but not something we enjoy doing, and something we would delegate if we could.

who, in your ideal society, would be doing the shit-wiping of your children? And is that all you consider parenting to be?

Happy to reply. Both parent's are responsible for ensuring shit is wiped. That stage of parenting only lasts a few years, so obviously there is more to it than that. And both parents are equally responsible for providing it. I'm not sure what you found so controversial about my comment. You seem curiously irked that I want more out of life for me and my daughters than to be confined to the domestic sphere and somehow judged against that standard. No thank you, perfectly happy to have a grubby front door step, not entering that competition to benchmark my femininity - I think I'll have to reassign my gender because I am certainly not feminine enough to please the OP

This is what I mean - because something has been associated with women rather than men, now women are denigrating it as viciously as possible.

This is bullshit logic - cotton mills and footbinding are "associated" with women and are denigrated, because things that USED TO be associated with women are usually shit - hence feminism!

Yes, I think a lot of people would say that bum wiping and housework are drudgery. Not all of parenting is fun and joyous.

What's your point - domestic slavery should be embraced, and because women have more empathy, they should be happy to take it on?

Moose - I think that making the best choice out of those available could describe a lot of people.

If I were independently wealthy DP and I would both be home with the kids (and maybe even have more). Since we're not, and at least one of us has to work, we both work.

Doesn't mean it didn't have some less-than-great side-effects for society as a whole, even if it was great for women's liberation.

I've just re-read this.

You know that women are part of society too right? Exactly what percentage of the population would it be OK to force into servitude to prevent those side-effects? Perhaps we could move to some kind of lottery? 50% of the population gets assigned to stay home, whether they like it or not, because they drew a an even lottery number, and 50% is allowed to work.

Does that sound ridiculous?

Yet basing this servitude on genitals (which I rarely use them for housework or childrearing) isn't?

I'd be interested to see statistics around the percentage of women who actually feel oppressed by being the caregiver. I think most women want equality and opportunity when they're in the workforce but that many are perfectly happy to leave it to embrace motherhood. If my colleagues are anything to go by, most revel in motherhood and love nothing more than sharing their baby photos etc and talking about their days out with the little ones etc.

I was positing that it may have been a contributing factor - and I'd appreciate evidence to the contrary.

I'm not going to be your personal google to disprove your crazy theories.

But remember that as well as "taking" jobs women entrepreneurs and business owners also create them.

So who, in your ideal society, would be doing the shit-wiping of your children? And is that all you consider parenting to be?

Both of the parents and likely also someone employed to look after children as well (at nursery or a nanny or childminder) - are you suggesting that something about women makes them naturally more able to wipe bums?

And no, that's not all that parenting is, who on earth ever suggested that. I gave numerous examples myself of the other parts of parenting that are actually rewarding, rather than having to be spun as rewarding to trap women into staying home and doing them so the bloke doesn't have to.

I'm not sure why you suggest that men should leave the job market because women start entering it; I thought a level and 'equal' playing field was the whole point?!

You were trying to blame women wanting to work 'flooding the market' for rising house prices. I was pointing out, that the men who had already 'flooded the market' were as much to blame, and that there was a simple remedy.

Yes, me too tomatoandcheese2009. I'm rapidly coming to the realisation that I am not actually the liberal feminist that I thought I was. I heard so many times in my career that women have the same opportunities as men but they just choose not to take them- that I think I may at some point have started to believe it.