Are/should male norms be the benchmark for female 'equality'? Should 'femininity' be prized too?

Christ, we have been so fucked over at every turn

Yes. And quite deliberately. I was reading the other day how in a periods of unrest in the late 15th Century, France largely decriminalised rape. Unpunished, gang raping of women was carried out by groups of young men, they were venting their anger on their poverty and difficulties on women rather than rioting and causing trouble for the authorities. As I get older I think in contemporary times sexual harassment has been employed by men, perhaps even unconsciously, to reinforce their 'territory' which is participation in public society.

DorisLessing I blame farming.

"Femininity" is the social programming used to keep women unequal to men.

Amen, Mephistopheles.

‘I don't see what about 'femininity' means that I'm better placed to be performing that role than him.‘

Because you made a decision to be pregnant for nine months and go through childbirth. He didn’t. So, in the absence of further information, you have demonstrated a commitment to your kids, while he is far more likely to not give a fuck about his kids. It doesn’t mean that you have to fill that role, but those two positions are the starting point of gender relations.

Working out of the home, away from the family/tribe, away from caring for young has only become widespread in the last few thousand years, a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms.

Once the patriarchy got hold it replicated itself over and over again, and had a death grip on most societies worldwide.

Doesn’t mean we can’t dismantle it

I don’t even know what a board does.

its a bit silly to compare a CEO with a cleaner to be honest. There are plenty of low grade 'male' jobs and low grade 'female' jobs and it would make more sense to compare those and see which is paid more has more status.

I think that anyone, make it femane, who measures their own success against the accomplishments of others is a bit of an idiot. Success isn't about our competing others. It's about reaching the height of your potential and leading a fulfilling life.

DistaffSide

Christ, we have been so fucked over at every turn.

I remember reading a quote years ago about the dawn of the welfare state and about how the whole thing relied on a supply of abed bodied adults with unlimited flexible time (women).

we have to promote abortion which benefits the work place

Jesus Christ - no, Abortion benefits women. It benefits women who get pregnant by accident, and don't have the means or desire to support a baby. It benefits women who's health is dangerously impacted by a pregnancy and who would otherwise die. It benefits the poor, poor women who's child cannot survive, and have to make the heartbreaking decision to end a pregnancy early.

Businesses are the last people that abortion benefits. Much like the pill.

I'd like to see women valued more in the roles they choose rather than being pushed into a board room just to make up equal representation.

I choose to be in the boardroom then. I looked after my kids while they were babies, now I have a nanny so I can get back on it - yet funnily enough, boardroom positions (which really don't require a great deal of presenteeism when it suits those board members), aren't as available to me as they are to my DP.

Sorry, but again - as much as you can say that as a woman I'm programmed to care (and I really do) - I still don't see why that means I have to be the one at home cleaning toilets and cooking dinner when DP can do it or I can employ someone to do it. I don't see what about 'femininity' means that I'm better placed to be performing that role than him.

a lot of men are very caring and a lot of women aren't at all.

but I do keep pondering how pre contraception I'd probably have a lot more children and have been breastfeeding them all as formula wasn't as good or even used much. Presumably that was most women's existence for most of history. I think before contraception was wildly available the worldwide birth rate per women was around 5 children

my nan was one of 15, my mum one of 6 and I was one of 2. Its not long for the whole world to change in. My nan was still a big influence on me.

caring roles (traditionally associated more with women)

Why do you think these undervalued, unpaid roles are traditionally associated with women?

Because women prefer them? Or because historically the transition into capitalism stripped women (and men) of land and forced women from paid labour into unpaid reproduction of labour. Medieval craft guilds/trades would generally not allow women members (unless they were low paid), women were forced out of midwifery/obstetrics and other professions they were traditionally centred in. Systematically stripped of the means to support themselves in order that they were dependent on men.

What happened after World War I to all those women farmers, engineers, drivers? Were they allowed to continue in their roles? Or were they fired and shamed for taking jobs men needed?

We have no counterfactual situation to assess what women would be doing in our society if they had been socialised the same as men and had the same opportunities that men have had for centuries.

So no, I don't buy into feminine traits and feminine careers.

I think we are getting into semantics.

The ability to gestate and breast feed our young is on our biology - but the ability to care about them is no more innate to women than to men

The first part contradicts the second. Men cannot physically breastfeed which means that men cannot physically care for a newborn in a way that would keep it alive (at one point in time and still now in some places).

I didn't say that men couldn't care and women always do. I am saying at least one physical act of caring is innately female.

Hand waving reproductive biology has always been odd to me. It's everything in this debate.

how is caring written into biology? The ability to gestate and breast feed our young is on our biology - but the ability to care about them is no more innate to women than to men. How else would you explain broody men, and fertile women without a maternal bone in their body? Biological functions and emotions are not the same thing.

There’s nothing innately female about caring

How can we say that when it is literally written into our biology? I've been back and forth on this over the years.

Sorry - to the above quote, only if those men actually have children.

,Equality should mean equal opportunity for men to raise children full time - should they want to.’

We have to financially compensate people who do caring roles, regardless of whether they are male or female. It is profoundly unethical not to.

NDtennant-
Totally get your point about women representation at a level where they can yield influence.
I just feel that other women's concerns are pushed aside sometimes and board room representation at a certain figure.

.

Women’s “preference” for caring roles is down to powerful socialisation from birth. Remember we are born with our brains partly formed so it’s impossible to separate nature and nurture.

Equality should mean equal opportunity for men to raise children full time - should they want to.

There’s nothing innately female about caring.

Well actually I do get it. It's clearly intended to reinforce strict gender roles by implying women are innately less likely to desire such roles with a delicious underlying layer of judgement (unnatural!) on those who do plus the usual altie accusation of unsisterliness, ooh how unfeminist. The darling little sillies should just accept their honourable and biologically determined rung on the ladder with good grace, then good girls will get treats from their betters like good maternity care (but not the choice about whether to actually stay pregnant, stupid bitches can't be trusted not to be exploited by the abortion providers after all).

TL:DR; BINGO!!

"I'd like to see women valued more in the roles they choose rather than being pushed into a board room just to make up equal representation."

But it's the people in the board room who decide what is valued in the company, and as long as those people are mainly men then what will be valued is what men value.

I don't get the "women pushed into a board room" against their inner desires argument.

There really is no shortage of accounts from many many many many many many many many many very talented women who either got pushed out of the boardroom due to their sex, or got pushed out/derailed/held back/tripped up/undermined/totally fucked over/etc while on the way to the boardroom.

Modern feminism only seems to strive to make women economic units. We have to climb the career ladder, we have to promote abortion which benefits the work place and the industry that makes money from it.
Don't hear many voices actually fighting for what in my eyes are worthwhile causes,
I.e. Women being exploited for egg harvesting when going for ivf, offered cut rate ivf for egg donation, ignoring the health risks to prop up surrogacy.
Honour based abuse

Contemporary feminism is an attempt of imitation of what men are doing instead of striving to help women reach their full potential in the way they choose.

.