I don't want to be a TERF

I didn't find it that bothersome, because I know exactly what she means about the odd, juvenile overreaction some gay men have at the mention of vagina - squealing is something I've witnessed - and i find it quite offensive for someone to display such open disgust at women's bodies (including mine) - especially when there are actually women there!

Yes, I have witnessed a fair few conversations about vaginas between gay and straight men. Its actually quite funny at times but yes, its bizarre quite how disgusting some gay men say they find vaginas. You would think they were discussing a steaming pile of dog shit sometimes rather than just a body part

He actually did squeal. He is the most camp person I know. Infact thinking about it he is the only gay guy I know who is really camp. He also did strop. Not sure why I should change what actually happened just because he is a very stereotypical gay guy

Absolutely Human. I love the idea of putting scare quotes on the word "reality".... ha ha ha

Pencils that hoax is hilarious!!

And Unpacking Queer Politics is so much the opposite in the clarity of the writing style - simply examining the evidence in plain language.

Although it wasn't supposed to be funny in UQP it did make me laugh out loud when Jeffreys speaks about the nuanced forms of 'phobia' that supposedly exposed bigotry... concluding with 'leatherman phobia'... ha ha - the irony of having a personal style that deliberatly provokes darkest fears of Nazi-like, sadistic male domination - then to accuse people of being 'phobic' for being scared of the leatherman... you can't fucking win!

Interesting point SomeDyke

The Sokal hoax was very funny and good for revealing pomo BS.

I can also recommend Unpacking Queer Politics by Sheila Jeffreys.

Many gay men in my experience were always puzzled by how lesbians have sex without a penis or a penis substitute. I know they know intellectually but i think emotionally sex equals penis. so caitlyn and surprise penis equals more sex. whereas tif is just nothing there to play with does not compute. just the same ole a penis is a penis is a penis and a dildo almost as good but a hole is just a hole.................

IMO the genital hypocrisy thing is all about male entitlement.

Males, for some reason feel entitled to have their penises serviced by other people, hence the global sex industry, etc. I just cannot empathise with it. I simply do not feel entitled to be sexually serviced by someone else, I can't imagine what it would be like to have that expectation men have- to be walking around with a sense of entitlement between my legs.

I think that is part of what weirds gay men out about transmen - it is the oxymoron of an 'entitled vagina'... which in reality could never exist because the vagina of a transman belongs to someone who was raised female so it could never be entitled.

I didn't find it that bothersome, because I know exactly what she means about the odd, juvenile overreaction some gay men have at the mention of vagina - squealing is something I've witnessed - and i find it quite offensive for someone to display such open disgust at women's bodies (including mine) - especially when there are actually women there!

I understand it (thinking or acknowledging the existence of women's vaginas) is extremely complicated for some gay men, but the un-analysed hypocrisy and misogyny going on does come across like an irrational teenager 'strop' when you witness it- which has at time left me dumbfounded before..

Perhaps I can't see the gay stereotype because I see people refer to their kids, husbands, etc as 'having a strop' which to me suggests childishness rather than 'gay man'. .. but then again I might not be receiving the words the way most people do.

Not really relevant, but I found your use of language unpleasantly stereotypical, BatShite. Talking about gay men squealing and stropping is really not cool.

Although I absolutely agree with the point you made.

Actually seen a couple of gay men (not all of course) throw lesbians under the TRA bus calling them bigots and transphobic yet when I've challenged them if they would date a TIF I get blocked.

Never understood this. Why don’t they just lie?

Although, I’m fast concluding that they genuinely see a difference between lesbian accepting penis and a gay man accepting vagina.

Because otherwise it would just be all too easy to say, yes of course I would dur, but then never go on to do it.

BatShite and that just shows the hatred towards women. One rule for men, one for women. The double standard stinks.

And that came out more convoluted than it should have. Sleep deprivation

Just because you label yourself in a certain way, that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to think with nuance and with critical insight that may not agree with what you think your self-labellimg thinks you 'should' think.

The trans issues are huge and complex. Give yourself a break. Ditch your labels, they will free your mind.

Me too

rather than just ignoring me and taking his word for it friends asked wtf had actually happened, and it turned out that they all agreed that the 'ladypenis' concept was just silly, and even to this day they will bring it up and tell him how fucking ridiculous his opinions are on the matter and that he is the most homophobic gay person they know by a mile.

That cheers me up

And I do use the label TERF because I've got none other to use. And I am a feminist, I'm not gay, I'm not trans*, and I'm not a man.

You think it's acceptable to use the term TERF and yet still reckon you're a feminist and a moderate on the debate? Wowsers.

Actually seen a couple of gay men (not all of course) throw lesbians under the TRA bus calling them bigots and transphobic yet when I've challenged them if they would date a TIF I get blocked.

Yes, I have had this argument in real life actually with a fairly close friend. Caitlyn Jenner came up in convo and it progressed onto transwomen in general and he started going on about how many lesbians are transphobic and refuse to consider transwomen as partners. And that it must be incredibly distressing to be rejected sexually simply because you have a dick This guy who was berating lesbians is gay, so I simply turned it round and asked him if he would sleep with a transman, and if he would see it as 'just a vagina' which drew in actual SQUEALS of protest which culminated in him calling me homophobic. To which I replied that surely HE was homophobic for suggesting lesbians are wrong for being attracted to the same sex and why on earth was it ok for him to reject vagina but not for lesbians to reject dick. He could not argue the point as clearly its nonsensical. He ended of stropping off in tears and informing anyone who would listen of how homophobic I had became overnight. Which went against him too as obviously rather than just ignoring me and taking his word for it friends asked wtf had actually happened, and it turned out that they all agreed that the 'ladypenis' concept was just silly, and even to this day they will bring it up and tell him how fucking ridiculous his opinions are on the matter and that he is the most homophobic gay person they know by a mile. Silly man.

Labradoodliedoodoo I see it all over my twitter feed. I am sick to death of the abuse TIMs are throwing at lesbians because they don't want penis in their bedrooms even so called 'lady penis'. Its homophobic as fuck to call anyone transphobic for being exclusively same sex attracted. my rage on this is strong I cant stand it.

Actually seen a couple of gay men (not all of course) throw lesbians under the TRA bus calling them bigots and transphobic yet when I've challenged them if they would date a TIF I get blocked.

The problem is that Trans women’s rights have been sold as progressive when infact its the opposite.

An incredibly easy sell when it is wrapped up in obfuscating pretentious language that makes the buyer feel they are being very clever and modern when they do buy into it.

The problem is that Trans women’s rights have been sold as progressive when infact its the opposite.

Cromeyellow, I read that, Marta Nussbaum got a lot of flack for it I believe, predictably, but I thought it was very helpful in understanding Butler, who is very influential (although i do wonder how many of her readers make it to the end of her books).

Gay and lesbian people clash hugely with Trans women ideals. Being a feminist lesbian is very unfashionable right now.

Very apt quotes chromeyellow