CPR

I agree Olenna, but this is an issue created by men (as a group) and impacting on women and children (as usual). So where are the men trying to sort this out? All they seem to be concerned about is their own feelings and reputation, as usual, while it's women here discussing it and feeling sad about it. I'm tired of it.

LeCroissant - because I do think it's sad that somehow we are in a place in time where good men worry about being seen as bad men if they do something with the best of intentions. And whilst it might be a theoretical risk, anything that stops people stepping forward (particularly in a medical emergency, where time may be really critical) is problematic.

Yes but I don't see the point in saying how sad it is when there are very obvious reasons why it happens and men don't do one thing about it. I get that you can worry about two things at the same time but IMO it's a waste of energy to worry about something so insignificant, especially when it's all about men feeling sad about the fact that so many of them kill and rape women and on the basis of that they'd rather let a woman die. I mean it's fucked up.

Yup, I second what other PP have said.

Men care more about their own reputations than women's lives. Which means as human beings we are worthless to them. What else is new?

I am capable of worrying about more than one thing at a time. Given that the OP was about men doing CPR then I have responded to that.

Seriously Rainbow, in a world where two women a week are murdered by men, and 85,000 women a year are raped by men, the thing you're worried about is a man maybe feeling a bit sad in the unlikely event that they have to perform CPR on a woman/help a lost child? If a man is really concerned re the child all he has to do is keep his distance and call the police. How hard is that??

YY Olenna

I don't know what the sad face is for Olenna (forgive my impatience, but this really gets my goat). I refuse to feel sorry for men who only care about the fact that they are affected by the general distrust in men, distrust that is totally warranted. If men are really sad about this, why aren't they doing anything to change it???

I imagine that it is similar to lone men not wanting to be the ones to approach children who seem to be lost. I remember a conversation with my dad shortly after Jamie Bulger's abduction and murder, where he said that he would now think twice (and look to see if there was someone else around to offer help instead) if he saw a lost child, to avoid being implicated in any subsequent investigation, for example if he were caught on video camera with the child

I’m not saying it’s common. I’m saying it’s a possibility. I’m no expert but it has been suggested in a large scale study. It may not be as simple as deciding to let a woman die. E.g., they see a person collapsed and rationalise that she is probably ok anyway, cpr unlikely to work (NOT always the case), someone else will step in (pluralistic ignorance), concerns about doing the wrong thing and causing injury, maybe balance is swung further if she is a woman with the added thought that they might be accused of something.

To reiterate, there have been no successful prosecutions and acting as a Good Samaritan would be supported in law.

On the scale of 'something bad' dying is a hell of a lot worse that someone maybe thinking something not nice about you.

So for fear of being accused they let a person die?

Literally saying I'd rather she died than have someone perhaps say something mean about me

I think most people would prefer something bad happen to a complete stranger than themselves?

None have been prosecuted nor are likely to be. The point is that they fear the threat of it, or the damage done by even an accusation of wrong doing.

How many men have been prosecuted for sexual assault after giving CPR? I cant find any examples using Google and it sounds like an urban legend.
How can men say this and at the same time tell us our fears of male violence are unfounded? I'm looking at you, James O'Brien.

I see what you're saying Rainbow, but the reason men feel like that is because so many men do assault women, in all sorts of situations. The situation men are in is that women feel they can't trust them. So shouldn't men do something about that, instead of whining about how hard done by they are?

I am trying to explain what men may be feeling. I totally agree it is not right and I can’t think of any men I know who wouldn’t. But actually, letting a woman die may not be subject to public abuse. Men and women die all the time (or have worse outcomes) because people do not do bystander CPR.

I’m just trying to agree with the OP that this is an issue and we shouldn’t bury our heads in the sand about it. I would stop and help but lots wouldn’t.

Also (from feedback I am given), people are concerned that they might assess for signs of breathing, find that the person does not require CPR and then that they would be accused of assault. It is not based in law but I can understand why people feel it and men more than others. Not convinced that they are being mysogynistic.

I think the real reason is more likely to
Be because women are less valued in and by society, so we are less important, and so less help is given when we need it. We see this at every level in society, so why would first aid/CPR be any different?

It's another symptom of an overall crappy situation women as a class are in.

The fear is that they will be accused of inappropriate behaviour and that even if it goes no further than that (which it won’t), then the accusation, gossip, time and general stress involved in defending that would be very upsetting.

Whereas letting a woman die without even trying to help wouldn't be?

Hmmm.. If you would attempt CPR on a man, but not a woman because you're worried you'll be accused of sexual assault, and you feel that subjecting yourself to that risk is worse than trying to save a woman's life, I think that is the ultimate misogyny.

Literally saying I'd rather she died than have someone perhaps say something mean about me.

To clarify, yes 15:2 is better for children but to increase the likelihood of children receiving bystander CPR it tends to be taught as 30:2 for the public.

PILS is a course for HCPs. The ratio for children is 15:2 for health care professionals with a duty of care to that child. The ratio for lay people is usually taught as 30:2 even for children to reduce confusion and therefore reduce the risk of nothing being done.

Please people, do a first aid course, or at least get an app on your phones if you are not sure what to do in an emergency.

Dialling 999 talks you through all of this anyway.

Mouth to mouth doesn’t actually confer significant benefit in a witnessed arrest, where the casualty usually has adequate oxygen on board prior to their collapse

Not often the case with children and babies who collapse, who are more likely to be in respiratory arrest. Five rescue breaths should be given before commencing compressions and breaths in a ratio of 15:2 in children as opposed to 30:2 in adults. I did a PILS course recently where I was basically told CPR is next to useless if rescue breaths aren't given as the person will eventually deoxygenate and suffer irreversible organ damage.

^ I've had not I've said.

The CPR training I've said mentioned it was important to speak loudly and clearly when approaching a potential casualty and to communicate what you are doing to other people, but tbh aside from accusations of sexual assault this would be important anyway; you don't leap on a prone figure and instantly start CPR without checking whether they are responsive or not first.
eg, pounding on the chest of a sunbather on a beach and then claiming that "I thought she needed CPR guv" would rightly put you into hot water.

On a slightly related note, I've also heard people in rl complain that "law suit culture" has apparently put some people off helping those involved in car accidents in case they get blamed for causing a back injury when they move them. In this case, good! You shouldn't be moving anyone with a potential spinal injury, unless you really know what you are doing and their life is in imminent danger.

Better training would be good for everyone, imo.

That some men are reluctant to administer CPR due to fear of being accused of something/weird awkwardness be true to some extent, but I really doubt that this fear is justified.

When I've been in the situation of helping someone get medical help ( a man) in a crowded place other people were initially very reluctant to get involved, due to the "someone else will sort it" bystander effect.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I suspect that this and a general lack of initiative are far more likely to be the reason people don't help than the sexual assault thing, though of course that may be a factor for some people.